Religion In Itself Is A Purely Positive Force In The World

The hypothetical argument offered here seems to counter it’s own logic. It is true, people would not follow a person to war if they stated it was for the purposes of satisfying their own ego. If however, they gave a passionate reason for going to war, people would follow that leader into war. Ergo, religion causes war by giving people a uniting reason to fight. If everyone were acting for their own interests war would not occur. It is when people see themselves as fighting for a higher cause than themselves that wars occur. Religion gives people cause to go to war, this is the same as saying that religion causes war. for if there were no religion, no unifying reason to fight, wars would not occur.

In addition to this why should something that does not cause wars be positive. I don’t cause wars it doesn’t mean I’m positive. If it prevented wars (which it clearly doesn’t) then it would be posistive. At best your argument suggests that it is medicore

Whilst religion may state that war and violence is not condoned, this is nonetheless what religion ’causes’.

The logical argument that can be used to support this is a comparison with alcohol. Yes, the manufacturers of alcoholic beverages state that drinking should be done ‘responsibly’, yet the media attention they create and the hype around their products nevertheless ’causes’ irresponsible drinking. The disclaimer in both religion and alcohol producers as to what they do and do not condone do not reflect what they actually cause. Put in the exact context of this debate, whilst the words maybe a purely positive force (deceptively so) the effect of religion as a whole is not a wholly positive force.

Although the scriptures may condone peace and love, people don’t necessarily practice what the preach. Or, in the case of the biggest offenders, practice what Jesus preached.

He said to love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you, and to turn the other cheek.

That would all be great most of the major churches in the world actually listened to their savior! If Jesus were to be resurrected once again in our modern time, there is no way that he would be a Catholic, Mormon, or any of the other sects that alienate anyone who’s different, offer help only to those willing to convert, and do anything but turn the other cheek.

Did George Bush, a very religious born-again Christian, turn the other cheek when he was attacked on 9/11 (an event where thousands of innocent people were killed in the name of religion) and decided to lie about to attack a country that had no connection? Killing more of his own soldiers than people were killed in the original attacks, and god knows how many innocent Iraqis?

The fact is that in many cases the more religious (at least in terms of how their church says they should be) one gets, the farther from the message, which is usually good and peaceful, they get.

It is organized religion that causes the radicalization that causes violence. There is no reason spirituality alone should necessarily cause the violence that organized religion does. In fact, a deep level of spirituality probably puts one at peace. But organized religion being shoved down children’s throats causes violence and hatred, and strays people from the good intentions of the founders of their religion.

While i do not agree that organized religion is a problem (religion has always been organized in some form in almost every culture since the beginning of man’s history). I do agree that there is a lack of DOING the will of God, a proper heart condition, a show of piety but living false to the word of God, and as was already stated, a lack of listening to Jesus, and not to forget, interpretation. While the Scriptures contain a clear message from the Creator, it is WHOSE DOING THE PREACHING OR INTERPRETING that causes Christianity to falter in many areas. Jesus himself stated that “these people honor me with their LIPS, but their HEARTS are far removed from me”. Even though he was speaking about a vast majority in the nation of Israel at that time, Jesus words ring all the more clear even today. In effect, Jesus says that a vast majority of US give him lip service. Even religious doctrine today is mainly lip service, and no true practicing of the love of the Christ. Jesus also gave a series of “Woes” to the religious leaders of his day. These religious leaders had a duty to unlock the scriptures to the people, but did not. But instead referred to them as “amharets” or people of the dust. In short, although the message of the Scriptures or religion may be of toleration, love, peace, etc. it is those who carry this message that are the problem. Not all, but quite a many.

So to say that its posistive your addminting that it does a lot of bad stuff but it still gives to charity. I’m not relgious and I give to chairty (in fact I am on the committee of one). As an American might say – ‘Go figure!’.

Your argument also suggest that the only reason people give to chairty is to prevent gods wrath. You may have stated that ‘obviously atheists and agnostics are as capable of being generous and selfless’ but, according to you, there is no reason for them to be as ‘religion acts as a definitive authroity on morality’. They would have to accpet religion to accpet the morality as they don’t accept religion they have a different take on morality.

Just because ‘religion acts as a definitive authroity on morality’ doesn;t mean it is posistive or correct. It is totaly circular and falls into all the probelms of deontology.

It is well noted that religion has done good for others in times of need, especially in times of crisis. But religions OVERALL RECORD has not been a laudable one. Even in Jesus day, it was the religious leaders of his day that instigated his death, thus setting a pattern for a long line of those who pretend to be religious, but cannot look Christ in the eye. And to say that religion also acts as a “definitive authority on morality” is to be putting itself in an even more dangerous position to be judged by God. For even God himself, in the book of Revelation partially holds religion or Babylon the Great (religious entities collectively, apart from obedience to God’s true worship, represented by a harlot, because of the spiritual fornication committed by it. Religions involvement in war, government and various God-dishonoring industries) responsible for much of the bloodshed in the earth – Revelations 17-5,6, Revelations 18. Why don’t we just say that it is the SCRIPTURES that acts as the “definitive authority on morality”, that would be better. As for religion itself: rampant immorality, homosexuality, blessing war, various abuses just to name a few, goes on almost daily even among so-called religious people, is this the authoritative stance that religion is taking? No wonder so many people are becoming more and more turned-off by religious hypocracy. Scriptures and religion are both at odds with each other especially for those who do not hold the Holy Scriptures as the authority.

Evolution is contradicted by Genesis given that Eve was created out of one of Adam’s ribs, along with the genealogy of mankind stretching back to no more than 6,000 years. It is a scientific fact that homo sapiens (what we now consider to be human kind in its current form, its “wise” form), came to be between roughly 100,000 – 250,000 years ago. A large margin, to be sure, but in no way encompassing of the Bible’s account.

What exactly are we addressing here? Even if we isolate organised religions, instead of just questioning religion as a more vague concept, or specific religious beliefs, what is organised religion in and of itself without referring to its individual organisations, their heads, the clergy and the laiety? We cannot blame a concept of organised religion independent of its members for the negative aspects of religion, but neither can we prove such a thing exists. And we certainly can’t say that no individual religious leader or even a religious organisation as a whole hasn’t been at some point a negative force in the world!

To say religion’s a purely positive force in the world is implausible. With one valid “against” point, the argument is in shambles. To say it is net positivity would be arguable, overall positive would be a little less arguable, but to say purely positive is to ignore man unjustly dead because of religion, every failed scientific discovery because of religion, and every family torn apart because of religion.

So your argument is as follows:

If you take out the bad bits of religion (which are clearly caused by something else – although what that is I’m not going to say) religion is all good.

I’m convinced!

The key word here is organised. Organised religion is religion which unifies a large group of believers under a common organised or institutional hierarchy. It is undeniable that organised religion has caused evil in the past and may continue to do so. One example of a religious institution which has caused a great many evils in its time is the Roman Catholic Church. Note that the proponents of the initial argument of the debate claim that all organised religion is a purely positive force, therefore only one religion not being “purely positive” invalidates the argument.

The Roman Catholic Church has, throughout the centuries, been responsible for a few major evils such as the crusades and the Inquisitions (most notably the Spanish Inquisition) and a host of lesser perversions, from the literal sale of salvation in the form of Papal bulls in the middle ages to the contemporary condemning of the use of condoms and the irrational denial that they help prevent AIDS.

None of these decisions were taken, and in many cases not condoned, by the masses of believers, but these beliefs were thrust upon by “more holy men”, members of the higher ecclesiastical orders.

The underlying problem of organised religion can be summarise in the following statements:

·  People with evil intentions often justify their actions through religion.

·  These people may form part of organised religions.

·  In organised religions one or few individuals hold great power over the masses.

Given the first and second statements, there are probably similar amounts of people with evil intentions within organised religions as without. In a disorganised religion, where each member holds similar but flexible beliefs and does not hold sway over others, this would not be a problem. The problem arises with the third statement: even the relatively few truly cruel and evil people in the world or in a said religion may push others into evil acts through their “divine authority”.

While none of this implies that organised religion is necessarily evil, it does mean that it can be evil, therefore is not “purely good”. On the other hand, disorganised or personal religion (or absence of religion) have, in principle, the same benefits as organised religion minus the risk or one evil individual leading the whole group astray.


In reaction to the opposing argument:

Before I begin, I thank the opposition for the complement to my reasoning. I am deeply gratified that my argument was appreciated.

First, I clarify that “organised religion” is a term quoted from the initial argument in the debate. This argument is about organised religion, and organised religion is by definition religion centred around an institution, though how strictly you define “institution” may vary from one doctrine to another. This debate is not about religious teachings or general or personal beliefs.

This leads neatly on to the second point. I agree entirely with the statement that evil committed in the name of an ideology (by ideology I mean any world-view, including religion) is not the same as evil caused by an ideology.

However, we are not talking about an ideology, we are talking about organised religion. Organised religion is not an ideology itself, but a group that follows a certain ideology. The Roman Catholic Church is an organised religion, whose ideologies may vary slightly over time but can be described as a distinct modality of Christianity, but an institution may not always follow its principles. It is perfectly true that Christianity did not cause the crusades: the Roman Catholic Church did. Hence, while evil is committed in religion’s name, it is committed by the religious institutions that constitute organised religion. Religion itself cannot be evil, organised religion, which is essentially different, can.

There: I bear to you the heart of my argument. However, at risk of a sharp anticlimax, there are still points that I wish to address.

[…]an evil individual does not need to hold an official position in order to exert a negative influence over others.

Absolutely. I agree entirely. However, a position of authority does make manipulation considerably easier, and such positions of “divine authority” are only present within organised religions.

Finally, the last paragraph, which I am afraid presents a basic fallacy.

seeing as evil is inherently contradictory to the most basic religious teachings, an evil act cannot possibly be religious.

If you will allow me to reduce the arguments to its basic claims:

·  Basic religious teachings contradict evil.
·  Evil cannot be religious.

However, here religion is, again, confused with organised religion. The statement above is true, but irrelevant. It was never stated in my argument that an evil act could be religious, merely that an act of evil could be carried out by an organised religion, as an institution may not always follow its principles.

Withing certain Religions, there are practices that are considered wrong in our society but when done with Religious purposes are accepted, an example is Rape. In some religions husbands can forcibly have intercourse even if they’re wifes do not want to. In societies were Religion is law, example Islamic law, there seems to be more accepted violence, examples of this are Fatwas, and .whipping,