Modified:
17 Aug 2009
by Admin

Vote totals:

Yes:

33%

No:

33%

Neutral:

33%

 
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DEBATE: AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

Affirmative Action was introduced to counter the effects of apartheid. However, the first democratic elections took place 14 years ago and yet affirmative action policies have strengthened. The policies, although implemented for an admirable purpose, have done the economy and moral of the country’s citizens more harm than good.





AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


It resulted in the South African economy starting on its back foot.


Change was implemented too quickly and the policies were too broad. As a result the less qualified took priority in employment over those more qualified. This resulted in a number of young South Africans emigrating to look for other opportunities (popularly known as ‘the brain drain’). The economy therefore started on a back foot.

The less qualified does not mean the same as unqualified. The hired individuals had the necessary skills. Positive discrimination is an accepted concept throughout the world and this is just another matter of justice.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


It has decreased moral throughout the country.


Many black people may wonder whether they are successful for their skills or for their colour, whilst white people are frustrated by a narrow window of opportunity. Moral is thus low.

Although this may be true in some cases, it is not the same for everyone. Many black people will know that they are skilled enough for their positions, whilst many whites have made their own opportunities. Those who work hard will reap rewards, regardless of their colour.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


It has unnecessarily extended into sports which affects the success of our national teams.


Affirmative action has unnecessarily spread to sports where politics should not be relevant. Racial quotas are unnecessary, they are detrimental to the standard of sport and it decreases moral amongst players and the country as a whole. The Olympic hockey team requires 8 players of colour, and Jake White who was behind the Springboks world cup win was forced to reapply for his position.

Sports facilities were also denied to blacks during apartheid. Racial quotas ensure that they have the opportunity to obtain excellent coaching and facilities necessary for future successful performance.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


Skilled individuals carry the underskilled individuals who have been appointed due to their colour


I am working longer and longer hours and part of the reason is because there are fewer skilled poeple in my industry which needs skilled people. A large portion of the workforce have been appointed in postions which require certain skills and knowledge. MOst of those who have been affirmatively appointed are not able to meet thew requirements of the job without constant supervision and assistance in even the most basic areas. This means that I end up doing not only my work which is demanding and time-consuming but a large part of their work. The most frustrating part of this is that high salaries are paid to these "previously disadvantaged" but incompetent individuals and we are creating a false sense of their worth which simply will not be sustainable. Our economy is being carried by the minority and yet there are thousands who are getting a free lunch out of this. It never ceases to amaze me the number of luxury cars on the road driven by individuals who were apparently kept suppressed when it came to education.



AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


Time to remove Affirmative Action from the EE Act


It is now 15 years since the new government and new labour legislation. This equates to a full 12-year schooling and 3-year degree time period, where everyone has had equal opportunity. It is now time to remove AA from a legal aspect of our legislation. Let us rather appoint the best person for the job - in terms of qualifications, skills, attitude and ability. It is easy to provide working experience when the above set of competencies exist. A person with the right attitude will always be successful in their chosen career path. In terms of section 15 - AA was implemented to redress the inequalities of the past, with specific reference to workplace demographics. How long will the past be allowed to determine current and future employment and career practices ? What is the long term goal of the country in terms of skill upliftment and development opportunities - race or abilities ? The generally accepted principle that AA is a temporary measure is questioned as after the 15 years, this should have been already attained. Available skills and qualifications should already be in place and no longer a point of focus when employing new talent into the workplace.

Also, the gravy train applies as much to the defined blacks in terms of this act, as it did to the whites in the apartheid era. How many of our black qualified graduates have left the country for better opportunities overseas? Think CA and nursing staff, as two examples.

All women, in terms of the EE Act, are classified as PDI. Yet when it comes to BBEEE and DTI Codes, there is no accounting for white women in any definition. DTI codes and their measurables (scorecard) are reviewed on an annual basis, which in itself is difficult to maintain. But the focus moves more and more towards Black females - so there is further discrimination in terms of all women and other people of colour. (another example of AA discriminatory practices).



AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


AA does more harm than good


According to Essential Labour Law PAK le Roux, et al., (2005: p 216) who argues that the main purpose of AA is to ensure equitable representation of the races represented in South Africa, in all occupational levels and categories in the workplace. However, he argues that this is also of a temporary nature. However, what is meant by temporary – and how will this be defined as having been achieved ? Is the assumption that the demographics won’t change, and how will this be monitored ? How accurate is our census when determining the SA racial demographics? Do Scorecards take this into account, and what level of confidence are they setting on the scorecard ? Does anyone know this ? Bring in some key stats and then also lessons from other countries (America and UK – which is illegal ito AA ):

As of (2009: July) it is 15 years since the new government and new labour legislation. This equates to a full 12-year schooling and 3-year degree time period, where everyone (SA Citizens) has had equal opportunity. It is now time to remove AA from our current 2009 legislation. Let us rather appoint the best person for the job – having proficiency in terms of international benchmarks in all the following areas : qualifications, skills, attitude and ability. It is easy to provide working experience when the above group of competencies exist. A person with the right attitude will always be successful in their chosen career path. In terms of section 15 of EEA - AA was implemented to redress the inequalities of the past, with specific reference to workplace demographics. How long will the past be allowed to determine current and future employment and career practices ? What is the long term goal of the country in terms of skill upliftment and development opportunities - race or abilities ? According to PAK le Roux: The generally acceptable principle that AA is a temporary measure is questioned as after the current (2009: July) 15 years, this should have been already attained. Available skills and qualifications should already be in place and no longer a point of focus when employing new talent into the workplace.

In terms of the current brain drain being experienced within South Africa, blacks (ito EEA definitions) as well as whites are leaving the country. How many skilled SA graduates have left the country for better opportunities overseas? Think CAs and nursing staff, as two examples.

As at (2009: July ) all women, in terms of the EE Act, are classified as PDI. Yet when it comes to BBEEE and DTI Codes, there is no accounting for white women in any definition. DTI codes and their measurables (scorecard) are reviewed on an annual basis, which in itself is difficult to maintain. But the focus moves more and more towards Black females – does this not lead to further discrimination in terms of all women and other people of colour? Is this not just another example of AA discriminatory practices? (I am not sure – what do you think ?).



AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


Affirmative Action is necessary to combat racism.


It is arguable that racist managers have been removed, and that is what matters. If there are no longer any racist managers then equal access to employment and sport will be guaranteed.

Affirmative Action was necessary to combat racist individuals in positions of power, and their attitudes have not yet fully changed. It therefore remains necessary to ensure protection for those who were disadvantaged by apartheid.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


Many still feel that white people deserve what they get.


Young South Africans should not be to blame for their parent’s mistakes. Everyone should have access to equal opportunities in education, thus allowing the workplace to become a level playing ground.

White people were responsible for implementing Apartheid and they therefore have to deal with its consequences. This is a moral booster for the majority of the population.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


The economy has strengthened.


It should be doing better. Load shedding is an example of this. Thabo Mbeki’s mild reaction to Robert Mugabe, the Zimbabwean elections and their land reform programme is a worrying factor to be considered.

The economy has moved from strength to strength: it is stable, it enjoys foreign investment and its natural resources guarantee the economy’s continued success.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


AA has not yet realised the visionary focus of the ANC government


For many years the non-white population in South Africa were suppressed, particularly in terms of education, training and job opportunities. While there has been excellent strides going forward in the addressing of this dispicable practice, not enough has been achieved. The Department of Labour, on numerous occasions, have stated that less than 10% of listed companies in SA have achieved their BBEEE status - and not yet realised a level 4 rating. Two areas that are easy to achieve the required ratings, are those of skills developoment and employment equity. (30%) Why have the large predominantly white corporations not offered enough bursaries or created more schools in the townships. Why have the SETAs not worked with DoL and created enough learnership opportunities for the PDIs ?



AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


AA does more good than harm


Yes we are 14 yrs in democracy, but no significant change has been achieved in the implementation of the Act that seeks to redress the imbalances of the past, for example, the EE commission report of 2007/2008, it showed 26 listed companies still not complying or rather systematically sabotaging the process by creating excuses. In this report 70% at top management is still white and it's not representative of the demographics of the country. According to Carl Mischke, fourth edition, 2005, Essential Labour Law, page 215-216 - states that equitable representation is determined by a consideration of the demographic profile of the national and regionally economically active population.

The rationale is to address the imbalances of the past by taking both formal and substantive approaches in achieving equality, i.e. treatment & outcome. Obviously it's in support of the constitutional legislative framework and other measures designed to protect or advance persons or category of persons disadvantaged by unfair discrimination. As Carl Mischke quoted that there's a turning point in this only until equality in the workplace has been achieved by the previously disadvantage groups, i.e. black people, women and people with disabilities.



AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IN SOUTH AFRICA DOES MORE HARM THAN GOOD.


AA is more harmful than good


For many years (from approximately 1948 to 1994) the non-white population in South Africa were oppressed, particularly in terms of education, training and job opportunities. While there have been excellent strides going forward in the addressing of this despicable practice, not enough has been achieved. The Department of Labour, on numerous occasions, have stated that less than 10% of listed companies in SA have achieved their BBEEE status - and not yet realised a level 4 rating. Two areas that are easy to achieve the required ratings, are those of skills development and employment equity. (30%) What contribution has the large predominantly white corporations offered in terms of bursaries to the representative demographic population in South Africa? Or created more schools in the townships? Why have the SETAs not worked with DoL and created enough learnership opportunities for the PDIs ? According to the CEE report of 2008 (page 31 – section 2.7.6) which argues that AA will never be successful unless linked to diversity, and was temporary in nature – not to be a permanent fixture of the future of SA. The rationale, the goal, the beneficiaries, the deliverables, intended to achieve (p 216) In studies done in America, these appear to be the findings that have come out : In an ideal world the only thing that we should be considering is an applicants ability to do the job. Affirmative action does not require a company to hire a less qualified applicant on the fact that they're white, black, male or female. If a white woman has better skills than a black male or a white male or a white female, for that matter, then I believe she is the one who should be employed. (Facts and Statistics on Affirmative Action in America – Kevin Thompson: 2006)




Vote on the overall debate: Affirmative Action in South Africa does more harm than good.

What do you think?  Vote on this debate below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No
1. It resulted in the South African economy starting on its back foot.
# 1

Change was implemented too quickly and the policies were too broad. As a result the less qualified took priority in employment over those more qualified. This resulted in a number of young South Africans emigrating to look for other opportunities (popularly known as ‘the brain drain’). The economy therefore started on a back foot.

dhc

|

13:37, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367


# 2

The less qualified does not mean the same as unqualified. The hired individuals had the necessary skills. Positive discrimination is an accepted concept throughout the world and this is just another matter of justice.

dhc

|

13:37, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367



2. It has decreased moral throughout the country.
# 1

Many black people may wonder whether they are successful for their skills or for their colour, whilst white people are frustrated by a narrow window of opportunity. Moral is thus low.

dhc

|

13:38, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367


# 2

Although this may be true in some cases, it is not the same for everyone. Many black people will know that they are skilled enough for their positions, whilst many whites have made their own opportunities. Those who work hard will reap rewards, regardless of their colour.

dhc

|

13:38, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367



3. It has unnecessarily extended into sports which affects the success of our national teams.
# 1

Affirmative action has unnecessarily spread to sports where politics should not be relevant. Racial quotas are unnecessary, they are detrimental to the standard of sport and it decreases moral amongst players and the country as a whole. The Olympic hockey team requires 8 players of colour, and Jake White who was behind the Springboks world cup win was forced to reapply for his position.

dhc

|

13:41, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367


# 2

Sports facilities were also denied to blacks during apartheid. Racial quotas ensure that they have the opportunity to obtain excellent coaching and facilities necessary for future successful performance.

dhc

|

13:41, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367



4. Skilled individuals carry the underskilled individuals who have been appointed due to their colour
# 1

I am working longer and longer hours and part of the reason is because there are fewer skilled poeple in my industry which needs skilled people. A large portion of the workforce have been appointed in postions which require certain skills and knowledge. MOst of those who have been affirmatively appointed are not able to meet thew requirements of the job without constant supervision and assistance in even the most basic areas. This means that I end up doing not only my work which is demanding and time-consuming but a large part of their work. The most frustrating part of this is that high salaries are paid to these "previously disadvantaged" but incompetent individuals and we are creating a false sense of their worth which simply will not be sustainable. Our economy is being carried by the minority and yet there are thousands who are getting a free lunch out of this. It never ceases to amaze me the number of luxury cars on the road driven by individuals who were apparently kept suppressed when it came to education.

admin

|

18:32, 21 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



5. Time to remove Affirmative Action from the EE Act
# 1

It is now 15 years since the new government and new labour legislation. This equates to a full 12-year schooling and 3-year degree time period, where everyone has had equal opportunity. It is now time to remove AA from a legal aspect of our legislation. Let us rather appoint the best person for the job - in terms of qualifications, skills, attitude and ability. It is easy to provide working experience when the above set of competencies exist. A person with the right attitude will always be successful in their chosen career path. In terms of section 15 - AA was implemented to redress the inequalities of the past, with specific reference to workplace demographics. How long will the past be allowed to determine current and future employment and career practices ? What is the long term goal of the country in terms of skill upliftment and development opportunities - race or abilities ? The generally accepted principle that AA is a temporary measure is questioned as after the 15 years, this should have been already attained. Available skills and qualifications should already be in place and no longer a point of focus when employing new talent into the workplace.

Also, the gravy train applies as much to the defined blacks in terms of this act, as it did to the whites in the apartheid era. How many of our black qualified graduates have left the country for better opportunities overseas? Think CA and nursing staff, as two examples.

All women, in terms of the EE Act, are classified as PDI. Yet when it comes to BBEEE and DTI Codes, there is no accounting for white women in any definition. DTI codes and their measurables (scorecard) are reviewed on an annual basis, which in itself is difficult to maintain. But the focus moves more and more towards Black females - so there is further discrimination in terms of all women and other people of colour. (another example of AA discriminatory practices).

gimt

|

03:23, 28 July 09

|

Karma Score: 12



6. AA does more harm than good
# 1

According to Essential Labour Law PAK le Roux, et al., (2005: p 216) who argues that the main purpose of AA is to ensure equitable representation of the races represented in South Africa, in all occupational levels and categories in the workplace. However, he argues that this is also of a temporary nature. However, what is meant by temporary – and how will this be defined as having been achieved ? Is the assumption that the demographics won’t change, and how will this be monitored ? How accurate is our census when determining the SA racial demographics? Do Scorecards take this into account, and what level of confidence are they setting on the scorecard ? Does anyone know this ? Bring in some key stats and then also lessons from other countries (America and UK – which is illegal ito AA ):

As of (2009: July) it is 15 years since the new government and new labour legislation. This equates to a full 12-year schooling and 3-year degree time period, where everyone (SA Citizens) has had equal opportunity. It is now time to remove AA from our current 2009 legislation. Let us rather appoint the best person for the job – having proficiency in terms of international benchmarks in all the following areas : qualifications, skills, attitude and ability. It is easy to provide working experience when the above group of competencies exist. A person with the right attitude will always be successful in their chosen career path. In terms of section 15 of EEA - AA was implemented to redress the inequalities of the past, with specific reference to workplace demographics. How long will the past be allowed to determine current and future employment and career practices ? What is the long term goal of the country in terms of skill upliftment and development opportunities - race or abilities ? According to PAK le Roux: The generally acceptable principle that AA is a temporary measure is questioned as after the current (2009: July) 15 years, this should have been already attained. Available skills and qualifications should already be in place and no longer a point of focus when employing new talent into the workplace.

In terms of the current brain drain being experienced within South Africa, blacks (ito EEA definitions) as well as whites are leaving the country. How many skilled SA graduates have left the country for better opportunities overseas? Think CAs and nursing staff, as two examples.

As at (2009: July ) all women, in terms of the EE Act, are classified as PDI. Yet when it comes to BBEEE and DTI Codes, there is no accounting for white women in any definition. DTI codes and their measurables (scorecard) are reviewed on an annual basis, which in itself is difficult to maintain. But the focus moves more and more towards Black females – does this not lead to further discrimination in terms of all women and other people of colour? Is this not just another example of AA discriminatory practices? (I am not sure – what do you think ?).

gimt

|

05:22, 28 July 09

|

Karma Score: 12



1. Affirmative Action is necessary to combat racism.
# 1

Affirmative Action was necessary to combat racist individuals in positions of power, and their attitudes have not yet fully changed. It therefore remains necessary to ensure protection for those who were disadvantaged by apartheid.

dhc

|

13:42, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367


# 2

It is arguable that racist managers have been removed, and that is what matters. If there are no longer any racist managers then equal access to employment and sport will be guaranteed.

dhc

|

13:42, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367



2. Many still feel that white people deserve what they get.
# 1

White people were responsible for implementing Apartheid and they therefore have to deal with its consequences. This is a moral booster for the majority of the population.

dhc

|

13:42, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367


# 2

Young South Africans should not be to blame for their parent’s mistakes. Everyone should have access to equal opportunities in education, thus allowing the workplace to become a level playing ground.

dhc

|

13:42, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367



3. The economy has strengthened.
# 1

The economy has moved from strength to strength: it is stable, it enjoys foreign investment and its natural resources guarantee the economy’s continued success.

dhc

|

13:43, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367


# 2

It should be doing better. Load shedding is an example of this. Thabo Mbeki’s mild reaction to Robert Mugabe, the Zimbabwean elections and their land reform programme is a worrying factor to be considered.

dhc

|

13:43, 25 April 08

|

Karma Score: 1367



4. AA has not yet realised the visionary focus of the ANC government
# 1

For many years the non-white population in South Africa were suppressed, particularly in terms of education, training and job opportunities. While there has been excellent strides going forward in the addressing of this dispicable practice, not enough has been achieved. The Department of Labour, on numerous occasions, have stated that less than 10% of listed companies in SA have achieved their BBEEE status - and not yet realised a level 4 rating. Two areas that are easy to achieve the required ratings, are those of skills developoment and employment equity. (30%) Why have the large predominantly white corporations not offered enough bursaries or created more schools in the townships. Why have the SETAs not worked with DoL and created enough learnership opportunities for the PDIs ?

gimt

|

03:30, 28 July 09

|

Karma Score: 12



5. AA does more good than harm
# 1

Yes we are 14 yrs in democracy, but no significant change has been achieved in the implementation of the Act that seeks to redress the imbalances of the past, for example, the EE commission report of 2007/2008, it showed 26 listed companies still not complying or rather systematically sabotaging the process by creating excuses. In this report 70% at top management is still white and it's not representative of the demographics of the country. According to Carl Mischke, fourth edition, 2005, Essential Labour Law, page 215-216 - states that equitable representation is determined by a consideration of the demographic profile of the national and regionally economically active population.

The rationale is to address the imbalances of the past by taking both formal and substantive approaches in achieving equality, i.e. treatment & outcome. Obviously it's in support of the constitutional legislative framework and other measures designed to protect or advance persons or category of persons disadvantaged by unfair discrimination. As Carl Mischke quoted that there's a turning point in this only until equality in the workplace has been achieved by the previously disadvantage groups, i.e. black people, women and people with disabilities.

gimt12

|

04:33, 28 July 09

|

Karma Score: 3



6. AA is more harmful than good
# 1

For many years (from approximately 1948 to 1994) the non-white population in South Africa were oppressed, particularly in terms of education, training and job opportunities. While there have been excellent strides going forward in the addressing of this despicable practice, not enough has been achieved. The Department of Labour, on numerous occasions, have stated that less than 10% of listed companies in SA have achieved their BBEEE status - and not yet realised a level 4 rating. Two areas that are easy to achieve the required ratings, are those of skills development and employment equity. (30%) What contribution has the large predominantly white corporations offered in terms of bursaries to the representative demographic population in South Africa? Or created more schools in the townships? Why have the SETAs not worked with DoL and created enough learnership opportunities for the PDIs ? According to the CEE report of 2008 (page 31 – section 2.7.6) which argues that AA will never be successful unless linked to diversity, and was temporary in nature – not to be a permanent fixture of the future of SA. The rationale, the goal, the beneficiaries, the deliverables, intended to achieve (p 216) In studies done in America, these appear to be the findings that have come out : In an ideal world the only thing that we should be considering is an applicants ability to do the job. Affirmative action does not require a company to hire a less qualified applicant on the fact that they're white, black, male or female. If a white woman has better skills than a black male or a white male or a white female, for that matter, then I believe she is the one who should be employed. (Facts and Statistics on Affirmative Action in America – Kevin Thompson: 2006)

gimt

|

05:23, 28 July 09

|

Karma Score: 12



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