Modified:
13 Dec 2009
by Leo A Cap...
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Yes:
33%
No:
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DEBATE: SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Posted by: Leo A Capella
Karma:
1826
42 year old Gary Mckinnon is in the final stages of a long running extradition battle. Currently he faces the possibility of being extradited to the US where he faces being charged with hacking into military systems and causing damage of around $800,000 during 2001-2002. However Mckinnon has been diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome, Something which his supporters claim has caused his hacking and mean that he should be tried in the UK. It is also claimed he is a suicide risk if he was extradited. Should people with neurological conditions like Mckinnon face extradition to other countries or stay in the UK and be tried and sentenced there?
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SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
The UK has to fulfill its treaty obligations regardless of disability or not
Under the US- UK Extradition Treaty of 2008 and the UK extradition act of 2003 the United Kingdom is obliged to extradite people to the US who have committed an offence subject that merits imprisonment of beyond a year or greater. There is no provision for whether a person is disabled or not meaning that anyone who commits a crime should face extradition.[1][2]
- ^ Embassy of the U.S. London: Current Issues U.S- U.K Extradition Treaty.http://unitedkingdom.usembassy.gov/gb080.html
- ^ http://police.homeoffice.gov.uk/operational-policing/extradition-intro1/extrad-part-2/
The UK doesn't always have to follow a treaty and the government can bar extradition in the case of deteriorating physical or mental health[1] . Conditions like Aspergers Syndrome can be argued to affect a persons mental health if they have not been treated/ channelled.Liberty, argues that in the case of Mr McKinnon he had been the victim of an “unfair imbalance” in Britain’s extradition agreement with the US, which does not require the US government to provide any evidence of alleged crimes.[2]
- ^ Lord Bassam of Brighton "Extradition Act 2003 (Amendment to Designations Order 2008)" They work for you. com http://www.theyworkforyou.com/lords/?id=2008-06-10a.565.3
- ^ Lucy Bannerman, CPS considers last attempt at halting Gary McKinnon extradition, Times Online, 15th January 2009, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5526034.ece?token=null&offset=12&page=2
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Majority of attack and evidence in another country
When the Crown Prosecution Service said that it would not try Mckinnon in the UK the head of the CPS organised crime division Alison Saunders cited a number of different factors including the fact that although Mackinnon may have been sitting at home using his British computer he was allegedly doing consistent and repeated damage to American defence systems. This included a time where the US was at a vulnerable period post 9/11 something that aggravates the situation as it was a time of national crisis for a country[1] Saunders concludes with the point that:"The bulk of the evidence is located in the United States, the activity was directed against the military infrastructure of the United States, the investigation commenced in the United States and was ongoing, and there are a large number of witnesses, most of whom are located in the United States." If the activity of one person is directed against another state as well as being where the majority of witnesses lie then barring concerns about a fair trial people should be extradited to another country regardless of their own conditions.[2]
- ^ "CPS Decision on Gary Mckinnon"http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_releases/109_09/index.html
- ^ "CPS Decision on Gary Mckinnon"http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_releases/109_09/index.html
Firstly if the majority of evidence is in another country surely it would not add too much to the cost of sending the evidence and criminal experts to the UK. The logistics admittedly may be a challenge and the cost to the tax payer might be increased but no expense should be spared in the pursuit of equal justice.Also witnesses could be reached either through the justice system paying for people's travel and accommodation fares or using other methods such as video conferencing. In this day and age this is possible and feasible whereas in past times it may not have been.
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Follows semi established precedent
Aspergers Syndrome and other conditions coming under the "neurodiversity" umbrella have been treated the same as any other condition in the past. The Case of Nicky Reilly who was diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome as well as other learning difficulties is a good example of this. Reilly was sentenced to life with a minimum of 18 years for attempting to blow up a restaurant in Bristol a year ago[1]. The Judge who sentenced him Justice Calvert- Smith cited aggravating factors such as the fact that it had been planned for a long time and had intended to cause a large amount of deaths and injuries. Not extraditing Mckinnon would set a new precedent of undue and unfair leniency which could fuel resentment among people with other disabilities.
- ^ Daily Telegraph "Exeter bomber Nicky Reilly jailed for life" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/4399281/Exeter-bomber-Nicky-Reilly-jailed-for-life.html
There may well be an equality in law for people with neurodiverse conditions in the way they are sentenced, But is that equality a genuine equality in justice or merely revenge and inappropriate for the people detained or extradited? In 2004 three quarters of male inmates were found to be affected by "two mental health problems including conditions such as schizophrenia"[1]. Given these statistics is this "precedent" really a good thing?Also there seems to be a big difference between these cases, Reilly planned and attempted to carry out a bombing that could have killed. McKinnon’s offence is that he was a hacker and caused damage to military property. While there may be some potential for loss of life due to military systems being down it is not an immediate effect of hacking, unlike bombing. Yet the possible sentences seem remarkably similar: life for Reilly compared to a maximum of 70 years for McKinnon but McKinnon would have the added trauma of being separated from family by being imprisoned in the USA.
- ^ Prison Reform Trust"Mental health crisis among male prisoners" http://www.prisonreformtrust.org.uk/subsection.asp?id=317
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Disability is not a justification for law-breaking
All of us should be observing the laws. Hacking is a criminal offence. 'Subjective' assessments of the reason for a crime may affect the punishment meted out but first the normal court process must be observed.Extradition treaties with the USA seem to have been badly negotiated but this is a separate issue from the correct process for this individual.
This "individual" requires "subjective assessments" for the need to extradite for the same reason that we apply them to the punishment and that reason is so that we can behave with compassion, fairness and justice - to uphold human rights.
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SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
CRIMINALS MUST PAY FOR THEIR CRIMES TO SET AN EXAMPLE
This claim that his Aspergers was the cause of his crime is nonsense. Aspergers is easily treated wiuth medication .
He knew exacrtly what he was doiung and now his legal team is trying to get him excused.
he has to be extradited so Briatin can show solidarity with the US and to emphasize that crime is crime not a silly game.
The claim that Aspergers can be treated with medication is something that should be disregarded given there is no recognised medication that can be used to treat what is a spectrum condition. Anyway this point is irrelevant as while the debate is looking at Mckinnon as a high profile example it is focusing on the wider context of whether people with neurological conditions/ neurodiversity should be extradited. Crime is something that should be punished but the problem here is punishment involves a proportionate response and one that involves a chance for the person involved .
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Counterproductive for the country extraditing
All the more reason for the state involved to do their utmost to keep the people being extradited alive and in good health then isn't it!?. In fact far from being counter productive extraditing people with mental health difficulties could force countries who extradite people to improve their own services and work with other countries in continuing this. Further more extradition admittedly in the short run would be productive for a state as they would be getting a person to stand trail and may be face punishment (if they were found guilty) in their own country which was the whole point of initiating the process in the first place regardless of a persons mental health or not. Both short term and long term benefits make extraditing a person with a neurological condition possibly beneficial.
Extraditing people with neurological conditions can be ultimately counterproductive for the country extraditing the person involved. This is because it drains resources such as funding and attention that could be spent looking after current inmates who have mental conditions like Autism. Further more for those that are particularly vulnerable and classified "suicide risks" this raises the prospect of a foreign national dieing due to failures of the country that was supposed to be keeping him alive possibly causing international outrage and souring relations with that other country . This is something that wouldn't be helpful to the member state's interest
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Undermines efforts to treat and or train people with disabilities
Maybe but has Mckinnon or a person who was in a similar situation forfeited his right to be near his existing network of support given the offence they have committed. Furthermore there would be an opportunity for the extradited person to build new (not necessarily criminal) networks for that person.
Extraditing Mckinnon or any other person with neurological disabilities could undermine the treatment they are currently receiving in their home countries by moving them away from the support networks they already have.
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Case by case, but only when necessary
The judicial rules are clear ignorance is not an excuse something that has been ruled time and time again in courts. Anyway whether it is a factor should be something for the US courts to decide. There is a recognised line of appeal for defendants to go through in the states. Furthermore when Mckinnon allegedly crossed the line from observing into "vandalising" he moved from something that was potentially in the public interest ( searching for information on a cover up about UFO's) to something that could not be disregarded as a crime (vandalising) and possibly damaging files. Furthermore this debate although it makes reference to a specific case ties into a widespread principle that people with neurological conditions should be subject to the full process of justice and due process (although admittedly within reasonable adjustments), something which does not just involve sentencing, it involves prosecution and in some cases it does ultimately involve extradition to another country. If justice is truly blind it does not distinguish between people with neurological conditions (or neurodiversities) and their non neurodiverse counterparts. It may level the playing field and maybe countries such as the US should undertake to make commitments concerning sentencing and the treatment of people with neurological conditions amongst other things.
Asperger’s “can bring a sort of tunnel vision so that in their pursuit of the truth they are blind to the potential social consequences for them or for other people.” Mr McKinnon “believed that what he was doing was right” when he hacked into the computers because he was trying to uncover the truth.[1] There is therefore a question about whether he knew he was breaking the law. Simon Baron-Cohen, a professor at the University of Cambridge argues Mr McKinnon was acting through “social naivete” rather than criminal intent.[2] Surely this should be reason for mitigation and not extraditing? He would not be escaping justice if tried in the UK over the USA, there are no victims who desire to see justice done at home, if justice is blind then it should not matter to the US state that one of her close allies tries him. More widely who should be extradited should be done on the basis of the individual case, whether there are real benefits to having someone extradited and tried abroad as opposed to in their home country. In this case the only benefit seems to be to satisfy the US Military (which seems decidedly political rather than judicial).
- ^ Sam Marsden, Hacker facing extradition has Asperger’s Syndrome, Press and Journal, 16th January 2009, http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1031119?UserKey=
- ^ Lucy Bannerman, CPS considers last attempt at halting Gary MKinnon extradition, Times Online, 15th January 2009, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5526034.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
It contravenes our human rights
Unless conditions are severe enough the supposed right to extradition is not around in any UN treaties , The US Constitution or the European Court of Human Rights so in theory there is no human right not to be extradited.
It contravenes our human rights.
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
SHOULD PEOPLE WITH NEUROLOGICAL CONDITIONS LIKE ASPERGERS SYNDROME BE EXTRADITED TO OTHER COUNTRIES?
Are You Serious?
With all due respect to the opposition this debate is not just about Gary Mckinnon although understandbly his case has been referred to frequently in this debate and is one of the reasons why this debate was started. However and let's be crystal clear about this: Gary McKinnon is one of an estimated 638,000 people on the autistic spectrum (myself included), people who have varying capabilities and varying degrees of competency depending on a number of factors such as time of diagnosis, training received and so on. While Mckinnon's case may not merit him being extradited it does not mean that those other people who share the same or similar condition do not deserve not to face justice abroad whether in the US or in a foreign country or even the International Criminal Court, if they are competent and fit enough to do so.
As for counterargument about double standards well let me the put paraphrase and old phrase well "many wrongs do not make a right"
The idea that we are going to lock up someone who successfully hacked into multiple military networks and defence databases of the world's biggest military power, who spends the most money on defence in the world, and consequently has the most complex security to its computer databses is one of the most blatant acts of stupidity I have heard of in the past year. You don't lock someone like this in prison. You make him head of security, or whatever that position may be. You give him as much money as he wants because he's next to invaluable, and you give him a Nobel Prize!There is, too, the moral aspect to all this. Gary McKinnon will certainly have a terrible time in prison - Yes, I understand that prison isn't supposed to be "fun", but this is besides the point. His emotional maturities and understandings are far differnet from that of an average person. The argument that by putting him in prison we are upholding the law and so on is a weak argument, not to mention its double standard. Britain and America have broken numerous laws over the past several years, namely that of illegal invasions and occupations of the Middle East. Where's the legal action on that? The Government can break the law if it wishes (as it has done numerous times in criminal cases also; General Augusto Pinochet, for example).Gary McKinnon is a global asset and a human being. He should be treasured.
What do you think? Vote on this point below.
Vote on the overall debate: Should people with neurological conditions like Aspergers Syndrome be extradited to other countries?
What do you think? Vote on this debate below.
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