Modified:
21 Jan 2009
by Admin

Vote totals:

Yes:

50%

No:

50%

Neutral:

0%

 
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DEBATE: OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.

The conduct of Bush's administration has been shocking, and hugely detrimental to the standing of the US in world opinion. If he wants to preside over and administration that can have a legitimate claim to respecting international law and human rights, Obama must launch an investigation into charges of war crimes against Bush.





OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Bush instigated a war of aggression, motivated in part by economic gain.


Much has been made of an undisclosed underlying motive for the invasion of Iraq - the securing of a cheap oil supply for the US.

Even before September 11th, the possibility of military invasion to replenish dwindling oil supplies was recommended by influential (and now published) reports commissioned by Bush's administration. [1]

The American economy is hugely dependent on oil security, a fact of which Dick Cheney, former head of oil giant Halliburton was well aware. In the early stages of the war, Halliburton had already been awarded a $900m contract to operate in post-war Iraq. [2]

Furthermore, the evidence of weapons of mass-destruction that was mooted as a basis for the invasion of Iraq was doctored and manipulated to drum up support for a war Bush's administration knew was illegal.

Not only did the US originally sell Saddam Hussein the chemical weapons they later condemned, but when presenting vital materials to the UN on Iraq's weapons stock, the US removed 70% of the document, thus deliberately presenting a stilted and unrepresentative version of events for their own, illegal ends. [3]

It is clear that Bush sought to exploit the volatility of a post-September 11 world, and jumped at the chance to illegally grab Iraq's huge oil reserves. This unjustified war is one crime amongst others, that must all be investigated.

[1]: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/06/1033538848021.html

[2]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2837477.stm

[3]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2589149.stm



OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Bush authorised the use of torture techniques.


There is strong evidence to support the charge that Bush mandated the use of torture techniques.

Indeed, much of the Bush adminsitration's defensive rhetoric now amounts not to whether waterboarding takes place, but rather to querying whether it can be defined as torture.

Since waterboarding simulates the experience of being drowned to death, a simulated execution, it is a practice that is defined by almost all authorities as torture, and as illegal under international law.

Eric Holder, Obama's nominee for Attorney General has reversed the Bush position on waterboarding, declaring on January 15 that "water-boarding is torture", and that "the president does not have the power" to authorise it. [1]

This is an early sign that Obama's administration is not afraid to challenge Bush's illegal and immoral torture practices, and that it is willing to clarify that such actions were illegal.

[1]: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2009/01/61401940/1



OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Bush mandated the use of extraordinary rendition and set up Guantanamo Bay to carry out illegal torture and extrajudicial actions.


In order to avoid as far as possible condemnation for his illegal actions, Bush authorised the use of extraordinary rendition, in which a terrorism suspect is kidnapped without charge, and forcibly removed either to Guantanamo Bay or to a third-party country that is willing to cooperate in torture. [1]

He also instituted the construction of a prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba specifically to hold indefinitely, and without charge or chance of legal representation, any persons his administration felt might be responsible for "terrorist" actions. It has been called a 'legal black hole' in which suspects are held without the right to "an appeal to any court, whether state, federal or international, in the United States or anywhere else in the world." [2]

The sheer arrogance and cowardice of this approach undermines his own country's legal system, and goes a long way to showing that Bush was happy to ignore basic human rights to pursue issues of national security on scanty evidence. Many detainees have been released after years of imprisonment and torture, without ever having been charged and without an apology.

Obama must purge this cancerous establishment from America's system, and begin to make amends by investigating and charging President Bush with gross and wilful violations of human rights.

[1]: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/International_War_Crimes/Thousands_Renditions.html

[2]: http://www.federalunion.org.uk/world/guantanamo.shtml



OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Bush has destroyed America's reputation. Only a transparent investigation will begin to rectify this.


Bush is widely regarded as one of the most unpopular and incompetent Presidents in US history.

Obama should try, as far as is possible, to cleanse America's reputation as the land of liberty; Bush, as a progenitor of and figurehead for all that was ugly and immoral about his regime, should be tried according to the laws of his country.

The evidence against Bush and his administration is overwhelming. If these actions are ignored, they will fester in the American national consciousness and provide a serious block to any successful peaceful foreign policy Obama might wish to undertake. [1]

Only then can America claim to practice any kind of justice and freedom.

[1]: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/41514.html

And yet, during his terms as president, he had the highest approval rating of any president.

Bush is not wholly responsible for what happened in the last eight years. The President does not have the ability to declare, only congress does. And in the last few years of his presidency, congress was controlled by the democratic party.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Any investigation will only serve to undermine the office of President, and further damage America's world reputation.


It would actually enhance Obama's standing if he were seen to be pursuing a war crimes investigation against Bush, Cheney and the rest. It might 'damage' the office of President to the extent that it would make future Presidents think twice before riding roughshod over international law - but isn't that something we would all (except perhaps those hoping to be President!) want to see? No-one should be above the law, and for that to be true there has to be accountability for one's misdeeds, even for a President. In fact, especially for a President.

It would be far too domestically damaging to the office of President if Obama initiated an investigation against Bush. Obama would damage his own standing at a time when he is eager to be able to push through reforms of his own.

Bush is already a lame duck and out of power - Obama should concentrate on reversing the wrongs of the previous regime before he even thinks about prosecuting its President.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


The lives of those soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan would be cheapened.


The soldiers who have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan went there in pursuance of orders. Their bravery and sacrifice is in no way diminished if those orders were illegal. Many of them, many of their surviving families, and many of the troops still abroad must have or have had their doubts about the legitimacy of the war. THAT is what undermines morale.

The US has already lost 4226 soldiers in Iraq, and 641 in Afghanistan. [1]

The lives of those troops who have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan would be cheapened, and those who are still stationed abroad would seriously question the merits of risking their lives for an illegal conflict.

It is not worth it to insult the families who have lost loved ones to the war, or to seriously undermine the moral of those soldiers who are still stationed abroad, by indicting the President who sent them there in the first place.

[1] http://icasualties.org/


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Extreme times call for extreme measures - Bush actions are proportional to the situation he found himself in.


As regards Iraq, the 'No' argument opposite falls flat on its face: Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th, and Bush knew it. You can't be 'proportional' in attacking the wrong target! There was a need to counter terrorism, but a 'war' on it was and is a nonsense and never had a chance of succeeding, indeed it has been highly counter-productive. Of course the US had a right to defend itself, but lashing out blindly at any target that comes to hand is the wrong way of doing it.

Any allegation of illegal force by a nation or commander must be considered in terms of proportionality.

After September 11, 2001, America and the world found itself in a state of extreme shock and anger. US national security had been compromised, and Bush saw that the only way to defend his country was to undertake measures to root out terrorists. The War on Terror was justified, and so, therefore, were the actions taken for it to succeed.

To indict Bush now would be to remove the right for the US to defend itself. This is unacceptable.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Let bygones be bygones - Obama has to concentrate on present and future, not on past


George W Bush has done many things which justify him being tried for war crimes. However, Obama has taken office with promises of change and improving the conditions in America. There is no use now of trying Bush now - what has been done, has been done. Instead resources have to be concentrated on improving America economically.



OBAMA SHOULD INVESTIGATE BUSH FOR WAR CRIMES.


Bush shouldn't be a scapegoat.


The office of president does not mean that a person is making all the decisions for a country.

To place the entire blame on Bush for the actions of the Federal Government is to make him a scapegoat. Only congress can declare war, and blaming Bush for the current economic crisis in America, as many do, disregards the fact that congress has been controlled by the democratic party in the last few years.

The criminalization of the republican party reflects poorly on America that they can't let bygones be bygones and that having conservative views is ethically wrong. The republican party has suffered enough as of recent - people refusing to vote for McCain on the basis of Bush's policy.

Bush will always be known for Iraq, just as Nixon was for Watergate, and Clinton was for the Lewinsky Scandal. Trying him as a criminal is adding insult to injury.




Vote on the overall debate: Obama should investigate Bush for war crimes.

What do you think?  Vote on this debate below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No
1. Bush instigated a war of aggression, motivated in part by economic gain.
# 1

Much has been made of an undisclosed underlying motive for the invasion of Iraq - the securing of a cheap oil supply for the US.

Even before September 11th, the possibility of military invasion to replenish dwindling oil supplies was recommended by influential (and now published) reports commissioned by Bush's administration. [1]

The American economy is hugely dependent on oil security, a fact of which Dick Cheney, former head of oil giant Halliburton was well aware. In the early stages of the war, Halliburton had already been awarded a $900m contract to operate in post-war Iraq. [2]

Furthermore, the evidence of weapons of mass-destruction that was mooted as a basis for the invasion of Iraq was doctored and manipulated to drum up support for a war Bush's administration knew was illegal.

Not only did the US originally sell Saddam Hussein the chemical weapons they later condemned, but when presenting vital materials to the UN on Iraq's weapons stock, the US removed 70% of the document, thus deliberately presenting a stilted and unrepresentative version of events for their own, illegal ends. [3]

It is clear that Bush sought to exploit the volatility of a post-September 11 world, and jumped at the chance to illegally grab Iraq's huge oil reserves. This unjustified war is one crime amongst others, that must all be investigated.

[1]: http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/10/06/1033538848021.html

[2]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2837477.stm

[3]: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/2589149.stm

admin

|

10:26, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



2. Bush authorised the use of torture techniques.
# 1

There is strong evidence to support the charge that Bush mandated the use of torture techniques.

Indeed, much of the Bush adminsitration's defensive rhetoric now amounts not to whether waterboarding takes place, but rather to querying whether it can be defined as torture.

Since waterboarding simulates the experience of being drowned to death, a simulated execution, it is a practice that is defined by almost all authorities as torture, and as illegal under international law.

Eric Holder, Obama's nominee for Attorney General has reversed the Bush position on waterboarding, declaring on January 15 that "water-boarding is torture", and that "the president does not have the power" to authorise it. [1]

This is an early sign that Obama's administration is not afraid to challenge Bush's illegal and immoral torture practices, and that it is willing to clarify that such actions were illegal.

[1]: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2009/01/61401940/1

admin

|

11:00, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



3. Bush mandated the use of extraordinary rendition and set up Guantanamo Bay to carry out illegal torture and extrajudicial actions.
# 1

In order to avoid as far as possible condemnation for his illegal actions, Bush authorised the use of extraordinary rendition, in which a terrorism suspect is kidnapped without charge, and forcibly removed either to Guantanamo Bay or to a third-party country that is willing to cooperate in torture. [1]

He also instituted the construction of a prison at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba specifically to hold indefinitely, and without charge or chance of legal representation, any persons his administration felt might be responsible for "terrorist" actions. It has been called a 'legal black hole' in which suspects are held without the right to "an appeal to any court, whether state, federal or international, in the United States or anywhere else in the world." [2]

The sheer arrogance and cowardice of this approach undermines his own country's legal system, and goes a long way to showing that Bush was happy to ignore basic human rights to pursue issues of national security on scanty evidence. Many detainees have been released after years of imprisonment and torture, without ever having been charged and without an apology.

Obama must purge this cancerous establishment from America's system, and begin to make amends by investigating and charging President Bush with gross and wilful violations of human rights.

[1]: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/International_War_Crimes/Thousands_Renditions.html

[2]: http://www.federalunion.org.uk/world/guantanamo.shtml

admin

|

11:08, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



4. Bush has destroyed America's reputation. Only a transparent investigation will begin to rectify this.
# 1

Bush is widely regarded as one of the most unpopular and incompetent Presidents in US history.

Obama should try, as far as is possible, to cleanse America's reputation as the land of liberty; Bush, as a progenitor of and figurehead for all that was ugly and immoral about his regime, should be tried according to the laws of his country.

The evidence against Bush and his administration is overwhelming. If these actions are ignored, they will fester in the American national consciousness and provide a serious block to any successful peaceful foreign policy Obama might wish to undertake. [1]

Only then can America claim to practice any kind of justice and freedom.

[1]: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/41514.html

admin

|

11:13, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14


# 2

And yet, during his terms as president, he had the highest approval rating of any president.

Bush is not wholly responsible for what happened in the last eight years. The President does not have the ability to declare, only congress does. And in the last few years of his presidency, congress was controlled by the democratic party.

admin

|

11:13, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



1. Any investigation will only serve to undermine the office of President, and further damage America's world reputation.
# 1

It would be far too domestically damaging to the office of President if Obama initiated an investigation against Bush. Obama would damage his own standing at a time when he is eager to be able to push through reforms of his own.

Bush is already a lame duck and out of power - Obama should concentrate on reversing the wrongs of the previous regime before he even thinks about prosecuting its President.

admin

|

11:18, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14


# 2

It would actually enhance Obama's standing if he were seen to be pursuing a war crimes investigation against Bush, Cheney and the rest. It might 'damage' the office of President to the extent that it would make future Presidents think twice before riding roughshod over international law - but isn't that something we would all (except perhaps those hoping to be President!) want to see? No-one should be above the law, and for that to be true there has to be accountability for one's misdeeds, even for a President. In fact, especially for a President.

admin

|

11:18, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



2. The lives of those soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan would be cheapened.
# 1

The US has already lost 4226 soldiers in Iraq, and 641 in Afghanistan. [1]

The lives of those troops who have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan would be cheapened, and those who are still stationed abroad would seriously question the merits of risking their lives for an illegal conflict.

It is not worth it to insult the families who have lost loved ones to the war, or to seriously undermine the moral of those soldiers who are still stationed abroad, by indicting the President who sent them there in the first place.

[1] http://icasualties.org/

admin

|

11:21, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14


# 2

The soldiers who have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan went there in pursuance of orders. Their bravery and sacrifice is in no way diminished if those orders were illegal. Many of them, many of their surviving families, and many of the troops still abroad must have or have had their doubts about the legitimacy of the war. THAT is what undermines morale.

admin

|

11:21, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



3. Extreme times call for extreme measures - Bush actions are proportional to the situation he found himself in.
# 1

Any allegation of illegal force by a nation or commander must be considered in terms of proportionality.

After September 11, 2001, America and the world found itself in a state of extreme shock and anger. US national security had been compromised, and Bush saw that the only way to defend his country was to undertake measures to root out terrorists. The War on Terror was justified, and so, therefore, were the actions taken for it to succeed.

To indict Bush now would be to remove the right for the US to defend itself. This is unacceptable.

admin

|

11:25, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14


# 2

As regards Iraq, the 'No' argument opposite falls flat on its face: Iraq had nothing to do with September 11th, and Bush knew it. You can't be 'proportional' in attacking the wrong target! There was a need to counter terrorism, but a 'war' on it was and is a nonsense and never had a chance of succeeding, indeed it has been highly counter-productive. Of course the US had a right to defend itself, but lashing out blindly at any target that comes to hand is the wrong way of doing it.

admin

|

11:25, 20 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



4. Let bygones be bygones - Obama has to concentrate on present and future, not on past
# 1

George W Bush has done many things which justify him being tried for war crimes. However, Obama has taken office with promises of change and improving the conditions in America. There is no use now of trying Bush now - what has been done, has been done. Instead resources have to be concentrated on improving America economically.

admin

|

14:31, 04 February 09

|

Karma Score: 14



5. Bush shouldn't be a scapegoat.
# 1

The office of president does not mean that a person is making all the decisions for a country.

To place the entire blame on Bush for the actions of the Federal Government is to make him a scapegoat. Only congress can declare war, and blaming Bush for the current economic crisis in America, as many do, disregards the fact that congress has been controlled by the democratic party in the last few years.

The criminalization of the republican party reflects poorly on America that they can't let bygones be bygones and that having conservative views is ethically wrong. The republican party has suffered enough as of recent - people refusing to vote for McCain on the basis of Bush's policy.

Bush will always be known for Iraq, just as Nixon was for Watergate, and Clinton was for the Lewinsky Scandal. Trying him as a criminal is adding insult to injury.

admin

|

19:21, 09 March 09

|

Karma Score: 14



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