Modified:
09 Dec 2008
by Admin

Vote totals:

Yes:

100%

No:

0%

Neutral:

0%

 
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DEBATE: 'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'

Conservative MP Damian Green made headlines last week when the Metropolitan Police arrested him at his Constituency home in Ashford on suspicion of "aiding and abetting misconduct in public office" and "conspiring to commit misconduct in a public office". Were the police justified in detaining him for 9 hours as well as searching his office and home or were they too heavy-handed?





'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'


MPs should not be above the law


The arrest of Damian Green was not a personal attack; in fact it was a necessary step in a much larger investigation into a series of damaging leaks from the Home Office. The material disclosed was claimed by the Daily Mail to have ‘severely embarrassed’ the Government with details being leaked of a number of said parliamentary failures over problems such as immigration and the relationship between the current recession and rising crime rates. (‘Police state Britain: MPs want protection after arrest of Tory for telling truths Labour didn't want you to know’. The Daily Mail (29-11-2008).

Mr Green gave a public statement upon his release stating ‘I have, many times, made public information that the Government wanted to keep secret. Information which the public has a right to know’. (www.damiangreen.org). Now this may seem a very noble stance but the reality of the situation is that often the very reason that such information has not been disclosed is because it may do more harm than good.

Professor Vernon Bogdanor of Oxford University, a renowned constitutional expert recently stated that the Damian Green affair is simply a ‘strorm in a teacup’. He believes that the important principle is that ‘MPs - apart from when they're speaking in the chamber and dealing with constituents' correspondence - are as subject to the same laws as the rest of us’ (‘Row over Green 'grooming' claims’. BBC News (01-12-2008). We do not know exactly what information Mr Green is said to have leaked but if the police have reason to want to question him about it then it is their duty as an independent body to do just that. The Prime Minister, Gordon Brown has been made no comment over the arrest other than to say that ‘It was a police matter’. (‘Police state Britain: MPs want protection after arrest of Tory for telling truths Labour didn't want you to know’. The Daily Mail (29-11-2008)). To interfere in police investigations would be, to quote Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, ‘Stalinist’. We must put our trust in the police to do whatever is necessary to gather evidence and Mr Green’s position as a public figure should not be an automatic shield to being searched, arrested or prosecuted.



'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'


The Commons raid had been carried out by consent-it was not a breach of security


One of the main points of contention over Damian Green’s arrest is the fact that the Metropolitan Police spearheaded a search of his Parliamentary office and encroached into his place of work. Yet the police did not actually do anything wrong in carrying out the search. Both the acting commissioner, Sir John Stephenson and the Speaker of the House, Michael Martin have confirmed that the search was indeed carried out by consent. The Government had the opportunity to object to the search and they failed to do so and the responsibility for that should lie with the Speaker of the House himself. Mr Bob Marshall is the first Labour MP to call for the Speaker to step down following what he states was ‘a deplorable breach of his duties’. (MP urges Speaker to quit over Greengate’http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5297901.ece)

Following such an onslaught of criticism from MPs and the general public, it is apparent from Mr Martin’s speech that he is now attempting to lay the blame firmly at the feet of the Serjeant at Arms, who he says signed the Consent Form ‘without consulting the Clerk of the House’. However, we must not allow this to distract us from the crucial fact that procedurally the police did everything they could to uphold their obligations. They were not at fault in seeing through an investigative operation with the consent of the Government behind them.



'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'


What exactly was so ‘heavy-handed’ about the arrest anyway?


If we consider the nature of Damian Green’s arrest it boils down to three aspects: his detention at the police station for nine hours; the search of his office and finally the search of his home. Are any of these features out of place in a standard police arrest? No.

Being detained for nine hours is not extraordinary when the police are attempting to collate and consider evidence from a dual search being carried out, in addition to interviewing the suspect and taking statements. Mr Green was back with his family the very same day and although it may have been an upsetting experience for him, the restriction on his liberty for nine hours was out-weighed by the more pressing need to get to the bottom of a serious investigation. As for the alleged ‘ransacking’ of Mr Green’s office and home, this was a search and the police are required and trained to be thorough in their investigations. Once again, the fact that Mr Green is an MP does not mean that strict confidentiality and privacy extends to all aspects of his life. Vernon Bogdanor, Professor of Government at Oxford University explains that legal privilege does not extend to MPs offices in the same way it attracts to proceedings in Parliament. Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith also supports the actions of the police in carrying out the controversial searches by stating, ‘The police should follow the evidence where it takes them’ (MP's arrest not Stalinist - Smith http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7757170.stm) The police were simply doing their job and if the Government really did strongly object then they should have refused to consent to the search when they were given the opportunity to do so. Perhaps this will encourage the Government to reasess their response to cases like this in future.



'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'


It is the job of the opposition to expose the lies of the government.


The opposition party, the Tories, serve an important job. They are to counter what the government argue. It is a convention that disables government’s ability to lie to the public. The opposition party are there to protect the public and educate the public. This is precisely what Damian Green was doing. He had received information, regarding public concerns. Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said that the breaches of security were a serious matter at the Home Office because of the sensitive nature of its work (1). But this was not information regarding public security or terrorism; it was about issues which the government was trying to keep under wraps for their own good.

(1) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7754099.stm



'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'


It was information that the public are entitled to know


Whether actively or passively, Damian Green received information that the public ought to know. This included the fact that bouncer licences were being granted to illegal immigrants, that a cleaner of the House of Commons was an illegal immigrant and an email which stated that the recession could lead to a rise in crime. These are all issues of public concern and it should not be illegal for such information to be revealed to society as a whole.



'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'


It is unprecedented for an MP to be arrested and his office searched by police in connection with a leak inquiry.


Mr Green is suspected of committing a common law offence, under an obscure and little-used piece of legislation. Legal experts have said charges are unlikely to be brought, and unlikely to succeed if they do go ahead. (1) If it is unlikely to succeed then why arrest Damian Green? It is a waste of public money and police time which could be spent elsewhere.

(1) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7754099.stm



'SHOULD DAMIAN GREEN HAVE BEEN ARRESTED IN SUCH A HEAVY HANDED MANNER?'


A new Mugabi


The second the Government start censoring what the opposition say and arresting them for going against them, we are becoming just like Mugabi!!!

The opposition's job is to scrutinise!!




Vote on the overall debate: 'Should Damian Green have been arrested in such a heavy handed manner?'

What do you think?  Vote on this debate below.
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Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
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Strongly No
Absolutely No
1. MPs should not be above the law
# 1

The arrest of Damian Green was not a personal attack; in fact it was a necessary step in a much larger investigation into a series of damaging leaks from the Home Office. The material disclosed was claimed by the Daily Mail to have ‘severely embarrassed’ the Government with details being leaked of a number of said parliamentary failures over problems such as immigration and the relationship between the current recession and rising crime rates. (‘Police state Britain: MPs want protection after arrest of Tory for telling truths Labour didn't want you to know’. The Daily Mail (29-11-2008).

Mr Green gave a public statement upon his release stating ‘I have, many times, made public information that the Government wanted to keep secret. Information which the public has a right to know’. (www.damiangreen.org). Now this may seem a very noble stance but the reality of the situation is that often the very reason that such information has not been disclosed is because it may do more harm than good.

Professor Vernon Bogdanor of Oxford University, a renowned constitutional expert recently stated that the Damian Green affair is simply a ‘strorm in a teacup’. He believes that the important principle is that ‘MPs - apart from when they're speaking in the chamber and dealing with constituents' correspondence - are as subject to the same laws as the rest of us’ (‘Row over Green 'grooming' claims’. BBC News (01-12-2008). We do not know exactly what information Mr Green is said to have leaked but if the police have reason to want to question him about it then it is their duty as an independent body to do just that. The Prime Minister, Gordon Brown has been made no comment over the arrest other than to say that ‘It was a police matter’. (‘Police state Britain: MPs want protection after arrest of Tory for telling truths Labour didn't want you to know’. The Daily Mail (29-11-2008)). To interfere in police investigations would be, to quote Home Secretary Jacqui Smith, ‘Stalinist’. We must put our trust in the police to do whatever is necessary to gather evidence and Mr Green’s position as a public figure should not be an automatic shield to being searched, arrested or prosecuted.

admin

|

08:44, 08 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



2. The Commons raid had been carried out by consent-it was not a breach of security
# 1

One of the main points of contention over Damian Green’s arrest is the fact that the Metropolitan Police spearheaded a search of his Parliamentary office and encroached into his place of work. Yet the police did not actually do anything wrong in carrying out the search. Both the acting commissioner, Sir John Stephenson and the Speaker of the House, Michael Martin have confirmed that the search was indeed carried out by consent. The Government had the opportunity to object to the search and they failed to do so and the responsibility for that should lie with the Speaker of the House himself. Mr Bob Marshall is the first Labour MP to call for the Speaker to step down following what he states was ‘a deplorable breach of his duties’. (MP urges Speaker to quit over Greengate’http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article5297901.ece)

Following such an onslaught of criticism from MPs and the general public, it is apparent from Mr Martin’s speech that he is now attempting to lay the blame firmly at the feet of the Serjeant at Arms, who he says signed the Consent Form ‘without consulting the Clerk of the House’. However, we must not allow this to distract us from the crucial fact that procedurally the police did everything they could to uphold their obligations. They were not at fault in seeing through an investigative operation with the consent of the Government behind them.

admin

|

08:44, 08 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



3. What exactly was so ‘heavy-handed’ about the arrest anyway?
# 1

If we consider the nature of Damian Green’s arrest it boils down to three aspects: his detention at the police station for nine hours; the search of his office and finally the search of his home. Are any of these features out of place in a standard police arrest? No.

Being detained for nine hours is not extraordinary when the police are attempting to collate and consider evidence from a dual search being carried out, in addition to interviewing the suspect and taking statements. Mr Green was back with his family the very same day and although it may have been an upsetting experience for him, the restriction on his liberty for nine hours was out-weighed by the more pressing need to get to the bottom of a serious investigation. As for the alleged ‘ransacking’ of Mr Green’s office and home, this was a search and the police are required and trained to be thorough in their investigations. Once again, the fact that Mr Green is an MP does not mean that strict confidentiality and privacy extends to all aspects of his life. Vernon Bogdanor, Professor of Government at Oxford University explains that legal privilege does not extend to MPs offices in the same way it attracts to proceedings in Parliament. Home Secretary, Jacqui Smith also supports the actions of the police in carrying out the controversial searches by stating, ‘The police should follow the evidence where it takes them’ (MP's arrest not Stalinist - Smith http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7757170.stm) The police were simply doing their job and if the Government really did strongly object then they should have refused to consent to the search when they were given the opportunity to do so. Perhaps this will encourage the Government to reasess their response to cases like this in future.

admin

|

08:45, 08 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



4. .
# 1

.

admin

|

13:30, 08 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



1. It is the job of the opposition to expose the lies of the government.
# 1

The opposition party, the Tories, serve an important job. They are to counter what the government argue. It is a convention that disables government’s ability to lie to the public. The opposition party are there to protect the public and educate the public. This is precisely what Damian Green was doing. He had received information, regarding public concerns. Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said that the breaches of security were a serious matter at the Home Office because of the sensitive nature of its work (1). But this was not information regarding public security or terrorism; it was about issues which the government was trying to keep under wraps for their own good.

(1) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7754099.stm

admin

|

13:31, 08 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



2. It was information that the public are entitled to know
# 1

Whether actively or passively, Damian Green received information that the public ought to know. This included the fact that bouncer licences were being granted to illegal immigrants, that a cleaner of the House of Commons was an illegal immigrant and an email which stated that the recession could lead to a rise in crime. These are all issues of public concern and it should not be illegal for such information to be revealed to society as a whole.

admin

|

13:32, 08 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



3. It is unprecedented for an MP to be arrested and his office searched by police in connection with a leak inquiry.
# 1

Mr Green is suspected of committing a common law offence, under an obscure and little-used piece of legislation. Legal experts have said charges are unlikely to be brought, and unlikely to succeed if they do go ahead. (1) If it is unlikely to succeed then why arrest Damian Green? It is a waste of public money and police time which could be spent elsewhere.

(1) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7754099.stm

admin

|

13:33, 08 December 08

|

Karma Score: 14



4. A new Mugabi
# 1

The second the Government start censoring what the opposition say and arresting them for going against them, we are becoming just like Mugabi!!!

The opposition's job is to scrutinise!!

admin

|

08:30, 12 January 09

|

Karma Score: 14



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