The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

“ Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. ” — Qur'an [24:30]
“ And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms. ” — Qur'an [24:31] The international significance of the burqa cannot be contested. "On 29 April 2010, the lower house of parliament in Belgium passed a bill banning any clothing that would obscure the identity of the wearer in places like parks and in the street." "In 2010, Australian Liberal Senator Cory Bernardi called for the burqa to be banned in his country, branding it "un-Australian" "The burqa is not allowed to be worn in Syrian schools and universities by either students, teachers or staff" "According to The Jerusalem Post, a Member of the Knesset is intending to put forward a bill to prohibit the wearing of a full-body and face covering for women. [The] bill would not differentiate between Muslims and Jews." "Israel:Some years ago, a group of Haredi Jews in Jerusalem began donning the Burqa as a symbol of piety." "A poll in 2011 indicated that 66 percent of British people supported banning the burqa in all public places." "Wearing the burqa has not been allowed in French public schools since 2004 when it was judged to be a religious symbol like the Christian cross." "In Pakistan, the use of the burqa has greatly declined over time...Smaller cities like Mianwali in Punjab which have a majority Pashtun population have burqa-observances as part of orthodox traditions. These traditions are independent of religion, and women from minorities such as Christian and Hindu women also observe them." " Traditionally, women from the (Pakistan) rural areas did not wear burqas, since they were prohibited from working in the fields or outside with men."

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Burqas in Karachi and Lahore are notoriously worn by promiscuous maids and prostitutes

Poor women of the lowest socioeconomic strata irrespective of religion, wear burqas in cities such as Karachi and Lahore. The reason I feel ashamed by the very idea of donning such a garment is, counter-intuitive to most propagated beliefs around the garb, because I think it would make me accessible to men of all socioeconomic strata. Let me explain, while walking on the street in a fancy yet conservative business suit, expensive heels/shoes and official/formal makeup I know the poor people of the street will never assume I'm from their village/slum or that I could be anywhere in their league(as I would automatically be dubbed a member of a higher socioeconomic class), if I chose instead to wear a burqa, no matter if I grabbed a gucci bag to go along with it, I will, as a female citizen of Karachi, become any/every woman and that means the chai waala could have the audacity to think it is possible for us to get married or worse, to mate. I've heard stories told by burqa donning maids of being harassed and molested on the street, in the public bus and so on since puberty ,so yes I find the whole false connection between burqa and protection from sexual predators distasteful and deplorable.
"Wearing a burqa is not a blanket cheque to be considered a paragon of virtue. For example, in the 90s in Peshawar, there was a period when it meant the opposite. After the fall of the Najibullah government, a different crest of upper class Afghans came in as refugees, impoverished for the first time. Without men and social protection, some of the women took to prostitution. Also, during any trip to public parks in Pakistan, one can find many couples in love, spending time with one another, with many of the women wearing burqas. Then there was the Lal Mosque brigade, who supplanted the presumption of oppression with dandas and fascism."-[[http://tribune.com.pk/story/99016/debating-the-burqa/]]

"In Pakistan, the use of the burqa has greatly declined over time. The cities of Rawalpindi, Sargodha, Multan, Hyderabad, Peshawar and Quetta were overwhelmingly seen as cities of burqa-clad women at the time of Independence (1947). However, burqa use, to some extent, persists in rural areas of the Northwest Frontier Province and some adjoining areas of Punjab and Balochistan. Smaller cities like Mianwali in Punjab which have a majority Pashtun population have burqa-observances as part of orthodox traditions. These traditions are independent of religion, and women from minorities such as Christian and Hindu women also observe them. However, the burqa observances remain localized and most women who observe burqa within these areas, do not do so when and if they travel out of the area. There the burqa is a symbol of wealth and honor[citation needed] as well as a tradition instead of a religious symbol. The burqas worn are either the chadri version, or a local cloak-like garment with a veil stitched on top. Traditionally, women from the rural areas did not wear burqas, since they were prohibited from working in the fields or outside with men." Karachi and Lahore are two cities , Pakistan as a greater whole assigns different burqas with different attributes.
As noted in the paragraph above in certain areas burqas are seen as a symbol of class and shed off by wearers when they visit developed urban settings. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa#Pakistan]]

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Not for personal pious reasons but political ones

[[http://www.spittoon.org/archives/2143]] "A video featuring a British Muslim woman who decided to take off the hijab after realising she was wearing it not for personal pious reasons but political ones – contrary to what certain Islamists proclaim. She is of the opinion that it’s better for society that men learn how to function appropriately around unveiled women than that society shroud women from men and place the blame for men’s behavioural inadequacies on women’s shoulders."
I would add to that the truth that rape and molestation, is less about erections and more about bullying and/or annexing power/control. This is standard textbook psychology [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence#Groth_typology]] [[DiCanio, Margaret (1993). The encyclopedia of violence: origins, attitudes, consequences. New York: Facts on File. ISBN 0-8160-2332-8]] As Bill Clinton said on the Monica Lewinski case (not anywhere as extreme as a rape act but still related) He did it because he could.

"However, apparently at the insistence of some of their husbands, a leading rabbinical authority issued an edict declaring burka-wearing a sexual fetish, that is as promiscuous as wearing too little."-[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa#Israel]] It is true that a cat/diver's suit worn by Angelina Jolie or Catherine Zeta Jones can be just as or more sexually stimulating than a random naked woman. Lets be honest, most people do get aroused by renaissance paintings or National geographic documentaries on half-naked African tribes. Black items of clothing also make the wearer appear pale/white a feminine trait found attractive in middle-eastern and asian countries where burqas are worn most ubiquitously.

"The Qur'an itself does not suggest either that women should be veiled or they should be kept apart from the world of men. On the contrary, the Qur'an is insistent on the full participation of women in society and in the religious practices prescribed for men.

Nazira Zin al-Din stipulates that the morality of the self and the cleanness of the conscience are far better than the morality of the chador. No goodness is to be hoped from pretence, all goodness is in the essence of the self. Zin al-Din also argues that imposing the veil on women is the ultimate proof that men suspect their mothers, daughters, wives and sisters of being potential traitors to them. This means that men suspect 'the women closest and dearest to them.' How can society trust women with the most consequential job of bringing up children when it does not trust them with their faces and bodies? How can Muslim men meet rural and European women who are not veiled and treat them respectfully but not treat urban Muslim women in the same way? 7 She concludes this part of the book, al-Sufur Wa'l-hijab 8 by stating that it is not an Islamic duty on Muslim women to wear hijab. If Muslim legislators have decided that it is, their opinions are wrong. If hijab is based on women's lack of intellect or piety, can it be said that all men are more perfect in piety and intellect than all women? 9 The spirit of a nation and its civilization is a reflection of the spirit of the mother. How can any mother bring up distinguished children if she herself is deprived of her personal freedom? She concludes that in enforcing hijab, society becomes a prisoner of its customs and traditions rather than Islam." -[[http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed01.htm]]

"Many years ago when I taught at university, one of my fondest memories is of a student who was exceptionally intellectually talented and articulate. She wore a burqa and white gloves to cover her hands. Despite this total draping of her appearance, her personality shone through and she contributed to class as much, if not more, than her contemporaries who were unveiled women and men.
But that was not always the case. I had many students in other classes who were veiled, and the burqa not just covered their faces but also who they were. In a co-education university, they were exceedingly withdrawn, reluctant to speak.
The first student made a choice, I imagine. The second lot may have not. And the burden of guilt for the latter lies not with Islam, but social restrictions made by man over time" For many it is a personal choice and not one imposed or decided upon by others(oppressive men).
"Some years ago, a group of Haredi Jews in Jerusalem began donning the Burqa as a symbol of piety. The garment is now worn by hundreds, one woman explaining: "I follow these rules of modesty to save men from themselves. A man who sees a woman's body parts is sexually aroused, and this might cause him to commit sin. Even if he doesn't actually sin physically, his impure thoughts are sin in themselves."[9]" -[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa#Israel]]

"One of the verses in the Qur'an protects a woman's fundamental rights. Aya 59 from Sura al-Ahzab reads:

O Prophet! Tell Thy wives And daughters, and the Believing women, that They should cast their Outer garments over Their Persons (when outside): That they should be known (As such) and not Molested.

Although this verse is directed in the first place to the Prophet's "wives and daughters", there is a reference also to "the believing women" hence it is generally understood by Muslim societies as applying to all Muslim women. According to the Qur'an the reason why Muslim women should wear an outer garment when going out of their houses is so that they may be recognized as "believing" Muslim women and differentiated from street-walkers for whom sexual harassment is an occupational hazard. The purpose of this verse was not to confine women to their houses but to make it safe for them to go about their daily business without attracting unwholesome attention. By wearing the outer garment a "believing" Muslim woman could be distinguished from the others. In societies where there is no danger of "believing" Muslim being confused with the others or in which "the outer garment" is unable to function as a mark of identification for "believing" Muslim women, the mere wearing of "the outer garment" would not fulfill the true objective of the Qur'anic decree. For example that older Muslim women who are "past the prospect of marriage" are not required to wear "the outer garment". Surah 24: An-Nur, Aya 60 reads:

Such elderly women are past the prospect of marriage,-- There is no blame on them, if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not wanton display of their beauty; but it is best for them to be modest: and Allah is One who sees and knows all things.

Women who on account of their advanced age are not likely to be regarded as sex-objects are allowed to discard "the outer garment" but there is no relaxation as far as the essential Qur'anic principle of modest behavior is concerned. Reflection on the above-cited verse shows that "the outer garment" is not required by the Qur'an as a necessary statement of modesty since it recognizes the possibility women may continue to be modest even when they have discarded "the outer garment."-[[http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed01.htm]]

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

So long as every sexually repressed Muslim man watches porn (As opposed to Islam, refer to Quranic quote in debate definition)

"The relation between the sex industry (pornography, striptease, live sex shows, prostitution, etc) and rape has also been discussed. Some theorists charge that the acceptance of these sexual practices increases sexual violence against women, by reinforcing stereotypical views about women, who are seen as sex objects which can be used and abused by men, and by desensitizing men; this being one of the reasons why some theorists oppose the sex industry. They argue that pornography eroticizes the domination, humiliation, and coercion of women, and reinforces sexual and cultural attitudes that are complicit in rape and sexual harassment." [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence#The_sex_industry_and_rape]]

So, basically this sums up the Formerly Afghan Taliban government mentality. That all women should wear blue shuttlecock and if their feet would allegedly make the slightest, sound be whipped or beaten on the street and if during the beating the shuttle-cock veil would move or perfume/deodorant could be smelled, be raped on the spot ; only to be stoned to death after a few sentences proclaiming adulterous behavior. What loveliness!
As horrific as that scenario sounds, it was realized in Afghanistan not too long ago and the reasons for its realization is the open defilement of Islam at the hands of the patriarchal societal norms of the region. This is clearly stated "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. ” — Qur'an [24:30] " as is the very Islamic point of view that everyone should make an effort to smell nice. [[http://chillyoislamyo.com/why-you-should-smell-good-a-sunnah-perspective/]]
"Parts of the argument have a certain truthiness to them: the objectification of women (the statistics bear out that it is generally women who are raped) is a possible consequence of films and photos in which women are being objectified"- [[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/smut_freakonomics/]]

Counterargument:
There can be many other explanations for a fall in reported rape:
1) Women may be less inclined to report rape, because of the increasing porn fan base. Media depicting rape victims as dominatrix seductresses and/or masculine lesbians only makes it harder not to be embarrassed/humiliated/uneasy about the trip to the police station.
2) Rapists are let off by courts even when there is hard evidence, because of laboratory delays and other prolonged investigative processes. This fatalistic reality can almost inhibit a rape victim from reporting a crime.
3) There are more stringent measures being taken to humiliate, seek out and demonize rapists, so that they think twice about doing it. The media attacks rapists just as much or more than rape victims. The latter, having the higher moral ground.

[[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/30/smut_freakonomics/]] Billions of people watch porn regularly but they aren't rapists. "Exposure to only the more outre niches might cause a certain confusion in the young about what sex actually is: but then exposure to no porn at all is likely to lead to similar lack of knowledge of the Tab A Slot A (or B) thing.

But while theorising is all very well, it is necessary occasionally to fine-tune such theories by looking at the empirical evidence. And the most obvious fact about porn and rape is that reported rape incidence – at least in the United States, where a National Crime Victimization Survey takes place every year – has been falling in recent decades as porn becomes ever more available."

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Burqa pornography

Just google "Burqa porn" and viola: [[fucktapes.org/search-results/127886/burka-porn.html]]
[[http://www.google.com.pk/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=burqa+porn]]
There are quite a lot of people out there with veil fetishes.
[[http://www.imagefap.com/gallery.php?gen=39&search=burka]]
[[http://www.porn1.com/videos/30146/burka-porn.html]]

"Top Osama Bin Laden Porn Sites

Maybe you heard the news. The FBI is investigating reports that Osama Bin Laden may actually be using porn sites on the Internet to send coded messages to members of the Al Qaeda network here in the U.S. This of course brings several questions to mind. First of all, isn't it supposed to be a really big sin if these guys look at porn? And second, which sites does Osama use to get his messages out? We're not sure about that first one but we have researched and uncovered the top 5 porn sites visited by Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda members:

#5. Bare Burka.com
#4. Al Show You My Qaeda.com
#3. Hide In My Cave.com
#2. Shake Your Tali-bon bon.com
#1. Ji-STRING-had"
[[http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/jokes/bljoketalibanporn.htm]]

There are plenty more results featuring nude porn, I'm sure.

Who said Osama was the ultimate Muslim every Muslim idealizes? Whatever Osama did does not necessarily show what Islam teaches. Muslims follow Allah and His Prophet's teachings and not those of some guy causing ( it is assumed he caused it) the chaos the world currently finds itself in. Quit associating Islam with what some Muslims do or not do. Burqa of whatever kind it is should not be IMPOSED or BANNED at all. It should be the choice of every woman and hers alone. So much for the RIGHT to choose? Religious freedom? Women's rights? All these RIGHTS propose a woman should be free to wear a burqa if she wills!

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

In Paulo Coelho's "11 minutes" a pimp advised the protagonist prostitute to wear as many items as she could, so she would get call-backs

The explanation was that men who visited the brothel were paying call girls for the experience, not simply a sexual act. The pimp went on to state that watching a woman peel off each and every item of clothing aides arousal; therefore the more items/coverage the better. A buttoned down rain/long coat is exciting for the same reason as is a burqa. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleven_Minutes]] [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glove_fetishism]] [[http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071231025048AABPVMO]]

Counter-argument: Actually what was being discerned here was that the most clothed whores were in the greatest demand. A burqa does not hide a woman's proportions, A burqa does not make a woman less sexual but actually more so than buttoned down flannel or a plus-sized T-shirt. Does Ellen DeGeneres look like a sexually provocative woman? She dresses more or less like a man and has a boy cut, now imagine Ellen in a burqa, her feminine figure is automatically outlined and her large blue eyes accentuated against the black of her niqaab. What's sexier? The latter, obviously.

The arousal in this instance happens as the items of clothing are removed not when they are worn; period

This is a lame point. I doubt authorities would be interested in what does or does not cause arousal when considering banning/enforcing/allowing it. Whatever is more provocative may depend on the thick headedness of the males of that society. Muslim women don't want to walk half naked, whether or not it arouses or protects them. Period.

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Oppressive: bad for women's health

[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa#Health_effects]]
"Enveloping outer garments, such as the burqa, are believed to cause or worsen medical conditions in some individuals.[31] In particular, they contribute to a predisposition for hypovitaminosis D (vitamin D is commonly absorbed from sun rays, covering arms and the face can lead to slow and almost negligible absorption leading to vitamin D deficiencies [[http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind/]] ), which can lead to rickets or osteoporosis and may increase the risk of seizures in infants born to affected mothers."

Wrapping a nikaab around the face can cause permanent/temporary marks. The wearer may be allergic to the fabric a burqa is woven out of. It may be difficult to walk in a Burqa as it usually of uniform width and has no slits on the sides. A burqa, especially a black one can absorb heat and dehydrate the wearer.

The reason sunblocks are so popular is because the rays of the sun are more of a bane than a boon. There are other sources of vitamin D, mostly leafy greens.

The niqab can also shield the face from injury and less sun exposure can have a cooling effect. [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa#Health_effects]]

Hilarious arguments by the opposite side. My niqab has never left any parmanent/temporary marks. The wearer may choose the fabric herself if she is allergic to one fabric! It is not impossible to walk in a burqa like suggested ( unless one wants to run a marathon!)

The burqa/abaya/naqab protects the hair and face from extreme heat in summer. Please don't say women want Vitamin D when they move without one! Let it be the woman's choice if she wants Vitamin D this way or not!

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Saudi Arabia has boasted some of the highest rape statistics in the world ranking from number 1 to number 65(this year) over the decade

[[http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita]]
[[http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tra_iss_tra_in_per_cur_sit-issues-trafficking-persons-current-situation]]
Human trafficking, modern-day slavery, modern-day concubines (wearing a burqa does not eliminate non-wife status), What does Islam have to do with this, again? What universally moral ill does Saudi Arabia not boast of, that is the question?

Consensual sex for a woman by Saudi law has a much more severe punishment, than the punishment(yes, there's a punishment) for being raped. Many unwed mothers or pregnant unwed women when caught claim that they were raped, even if they were not for this reason.

The fact that the citizens of Saudi Arabia keep concubines or practice slavery or abuse people has nothing to do with burqas. Concubines don't necessarily wear burqas, as they are usually kept in the confines of gigantic and tremendous palaces. There is also no law against multiple marriages in Saudi Arabia.

KSA has a number of laws that don't support a woman's right to choose or what Islam proposes by the way. The fact that they keep concubines has nothing at all to do with whether or not it is a symbol of piety. Blame the men for once!

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

The Burqah is a security threat!

(Why does that remind of strippers?) Terrorists, drug/weapons-smugglers and the like are known to wear breast padding and burqas to avert security checks.

[[http://indianmuslims.in/lal-masjid-ke-burqa-waale-imaam/]]
[[http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/33978.html]] "The burka is no longer simply the symbol of female repression and Islamic culture, it is now emerging as the preferred disguise of bandits and n'er do wells."

Counterargument:
The difference is that people don't normally walk into a bank with ski masks or costumes on, whereas people could be walking into banks in burqas all the time. The burqa therefore boasts of being a better, less detectable disguise.

You might as well ban ski masks or socks or any other disguise.
No more costume parties, people!

A brick fell on a kid's toe and caused permanent damage: ban use of bricks forever.
The thief that broke into a house last night used glass cutters to enter through the window, ban all such instruments completely.

Osama used the internet to communicate with his supporters....ban it's use altogether!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

The Surah that most people claim means women should wear burqas, does not say anything about head covering or face covering

“ Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for Greater purity for them: And God is Well-acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women That they should lower their gaze And guard their modesty: and they should not display beauty and ornaments expect what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that They must draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husband's sons, or their women, or their slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their ornaments. ” — Qur'an [24:31]

"The following conclusions may be made on the basis of the above-cited verses5:

1. The Qur'anic injunctions enjoining the believers to lower their gaze and behave modestly applies to both Muslim men and women and not Muslim women alone.

2. Muslim women are enjoined to "draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty" except in the presence of their husbands, other women, children, eunuchs and those men who are so closely related to them that they are not allowed to marry them. Although a self-conscious exhibition of one's "zeenat" (which means "that which appears to be beautiful" or "that which is used for embellishment or adornment") is forbidden, the Qur'an makes it clear that what a woman wears ordinarily is permissible. Another interpretation of this part of the passage is that if the display of "zeenat" is unintentional or accidental, it does not violate the law of modesty.

3. Although Muslim women may wear ornaments they should not walk in a manner intended to cause their ornaments to jingle and thus attract the attention of others.

The respected scholar, Muhammad Asad6, commenting on Qur'an 24:31 says " The noun khimar (of which khumur is plural) denotes the head-covering customarily used by Arabian women before and after the advent of Islam. According to most of the classical commentators, it was worn in pre-Islamic times more or less as an ornament and was let down loosely over the wearer's back; and since, in accordance with the fashion prevalent at the time, the upper part of a woman's tunic had a wide opening in the front, her breasts were left bare. Hence, the injunction to cover the bosom by means of a khimar (a term so familiar to the contemporaries of the Prophet) does not necessarily relate to the use of a khimar as such but is, rather, meant to make it clear that a woman's breasts are not included in the concept of "what may decently be apparent" of her body and should not, therefore, be displayed."- [[http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed01.htm]]

I will go on to say that beauty, ornaments and the like can easily be references to a woman's posterior (badonkadonk?), since that is the most obvious thing to hide (for a woman) before her breasts, in an attempt to be modestly dressed.

"Zin al-Din reviewed the interpretations of Aya 30 from Sura al-Nur and Aya 59 from sura al-Ahzab which were cited above by al-Khazin, al-Nafasi, Ibn Masud, Ibn Abbas and al-Tabari and found them full of contradictions. Yet, almost all interpreters agreed that women should not veil their faces and their hands and anyone who advocated that women should cover all their bodies including their faces could not face his argument on any religious text. If women were to be totally covered, there would have been no need for the ayahs addressed to Muslim men: 'Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty.' (Sura al-Nur, Aya 30). She supports her views by referring to the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (S), always taking into account what the Prophet himself said 'I did not say a thing that is not in harmony with God's book.'11 God says: 'O consorts of the Prophet! ye are not like any of the (other) women' (Ahzab, 53). Thus it is very clear that God did not want women to measure themselves against the wives of the Prophet and wear hijab like them and there is no ambiguity whatsoever regarding this aya. Therefore, those who imitate the wives of the Prophet and wear hijab are disobeying God's will.12"-[[http://www.islamfortoday.com/syed01.htm]]

Counterargument:
Well once you get into Islamic history and what Muslim women (except for the Prophet's wives) wore and did. I'm thinking of Hind and her battleaxe in particular, to me she was something of a formerly cannibalistic Xena warrior princess, you understand the covering of a maiden's head was not anywhere as important as covering her 'maiden head" for reasons I will not delve into but should be clear to people who understand how sexual interaction works.

Or beauty and ornaments could just mean beauty and ornaments, literally?

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Women should stop competing with each other in terms of modesty/looks

[[http://www.igma.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=12904&page=4]]
"But we've seen this all before. Remember Demi Moore and Meg
Ryan? Demi Moore was vilified for her roles in Indecent
Proposal and especially GI Jane. She could not get a gig after
that. Meg Ryan was the girl next door who we all wanted to
be until she actually made the mistake of showing that she
was human in her much written about, short, relationship with
Russell Crowe.

The bottom line is that we eat women for breakfast, lunch and
dinner in this culture. Let's all keep that in mind the next time
we call someone a **** or petulant or ungrateful. As women
we need to figure out how to be better to each other."

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Women should stop competing with each other in terms of modesty/looks

[[http://www.igma.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=12904&page=4]]
"But we've seen this all before. Remember Demi Moore and Meg
Ryan? Demi Moore was vilified for her roles in Indecent
Proposal and especially GI Jane. She could not get a gig after
that. Meg Ryan was the girl next door who we all wanted to
be until she actually made the mistake of showing that she
was human in her much written about, short, relationship with
Russell Crowe.

The bottom line is that we eat women for breakfast, lunch and
dinner in this culture. Let's all keep that in mind the next time
we call someone a **** or petulant or ungrateful. As women
we need to figure out how to be better to each other."

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Women should stop fighting each and see themselves as bigger than a mere vagina

There's more to a woman than just that. Women are consistently made to see themselves as sexual misfits or nuns or both.Media pressures on woman are concentrated more on relationships, beauty and age, than they are for men.(Though, the metro-sexual/queer-eye-for-the-straight-guy-entrant is fast-emerging as the male answer to the super-conscious "oh no I have a zit on my face"! every other girl is a slut or ugly or stupid adult-teenage-media-monster)

What the burqa does is encourage burqa wearers and non-burqa wearers to judge, dissect and put down each others moral standards. Just as the Angelina Jolies and Jennifer Anistons are set apart. These cat-fights in turn add to the depiction of woman as more than or outside of sex.

[[http://www.igma.tv/forum/showthread.php?t=12904&page=4]]
"But we've seen this all before. Remember Demi Moore and Meg
Ryan? Demi Moore was vilified for her roles in Indecent
Proposal and especially GI Jane. She could not get a gig after
that. Meg Ryan was the girl next door who we all wanted to
be until she actually made the mistake of showing that she
was human in her much written about, short, relationship with
Russell Crowe.

The bottom line is that we eat women for breakfast, lunch and
dinner in this culture. Let's all keep that in mind the next time
we call someone a **** or petulant or ungrateful. As women
we need to figure out how to be better to each other."

It is not as if men do not have the same problems (Think motorcycling bad-boy heart-breaker vs the boy next door). It's natural for men and women to want to mate with a prospective partner either of a different or the same sex. It is also natural for all creatures to compete when it comes their attractiveness. Dueling knights and the catty homosexuals snapping at each other while competing for the same partner are really not that different. And neither are two women or factions of women fighting for attractive/moral superiority. Competition is healthy, to a degree.

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Very Un-Prophet-like Muslim male aggressors

[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_al-Ghazali]] A very controversial (self-contradicting at times. In my opinion, when he spoke for the state he didn't say what he actually felt but said what he said to avert execution), extremist yet popular Islamic scholar, in Egypt on how certain men and strict Egyptian laws directly and ggressively reject the Prophet's teachings when assuming a self-proclaimed martyr/islamist's role.

Mohammed al-Ghazali

She resumed her questions and I resumed my teaching. Then I asked “Why don’t you go to the nearest mosque to your home?” I said that but immediately I felt remorse. I remembered that mosques are closed in the face of Muslim women. The girl answered that she hated the People of Religion and that she did not like to listen to them.

“Why?” I asked.

“They are hard-hearted, and they treat us with contempt and scorn”, came her swift reply.

I don’t know why I remembered Hind (Abu-Sufyan’s wife). She was the one who chewed Hamza’s liver and fought Islam vigorously until the 8th year of Hijrah. She did not really know the Prophet. However, when she knew him and saw his lenient manners, she told him “I never wished someone on the face of this earth to be abased more than you and your family. Now, I do not wish to see someone on the face of this earth more honored than you and your family.” The Prophet’s kindness and sympathy changed the hearts of the people around him.

Now, would the Du`ah today learn from their Prophet? Would they learn to draw together instead of driving away, and to bring good tidings rather than to say things that repels people away from them and from Islam?"

Chauvanism is everywhere and has to do with the hijab. They treated her rudely even after she started covering her head, so there you go.

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

women have equal rights as men

If women are kept in cage like burqas..why can't men be.We all say that all are equal but we prove ourselves wrong by keeping women in burqas.It is like a punishment in which you can see, breathe, speak but not live.Why cannot women be free moving here and there like men.It is not written in quran, gita,bible, guru granth sahib that women should go out in burqa.the book "My Forbidden Face" by Latifa is all about her life in Taliban's control. She says that worst part was wearing burqas that is why I say that women should not be kept in burqas

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

women have equal rights as men

If women are kept in cage like burqas..why can't men be.We all say that all are equal but we prove ourselves wrong by keeping women in burqas.It is like a punishment in which you can see, breathe, speak but not live.Why cannot women be free moving here and there like men.It is not written in quran, gita,bible, guru granth sahib that women should go out in burqa.the book "My Forbidden Face" by Latifa is all about her life in Taliban's control. She says that worst part was wearing burqas that is why I say that women should not be kept in burqas

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

France is oppressive is telling people they can't wear veils

In other words, the opposition says "Criminals of the world unite you have nothing to lose but your chains"
Are all laws oppressive because they dictate a way of life?
Would that make all religions oppressive too?

Gurriya

Remember when the MMA banned hoardings and billboards carrying displays of women saying they confuse a man’s hormones? That was the time when a lot of people engaged themselves with studies of Feminism coming from the West and surprisingly, most modern feminist theories actually protested against the billboards and use of a woman as an ‘object of desire’ through advertisements. the well researched case studies and dissertations suggested a banning of female models especially in commercials that targeted men in particular. that theory was confronted by another group of post modern feminists saying it was their utter right to project themselves and their beings as fashion models in whatsoever commercial they desired. as much as the burqa debate is ambiguous and subjective to personal judgement, so was the feminist vs feminist debate at that time. Frankly i havent been able to make up my mind as yet. ten YEARS ago, was it?
Burqa to some is a subjugation – handed down as an heirloom.
To some its protection – glares and stares of men specially in a society like ours.
To some its ignorance – they believe it is religious although some of them would agree the women the holy prophet himself converted to Islam did not wear veils.
To some it is a norm – too adventurous to defy from.
Take Iran’s example, it is a law there to make women be shrouded in black. black, huh, no flesh should be shown, no colour should be displayed, during early days of the revolution, handbags were emptied of any cosmetics by women guards. and they named this and other signs of cultural imperialism as the Islamic Revolution. thus, the burqa became a sign of Islamic rituals in the closer region.
i am sure on Doomsday God would be more interested in my behaviour, my thoughts, my deeds and my spiritual self than whether i wore a black robe all my life or not. And of course i would be answerable to Him alone.

"France is oppressive in* telling people they can't wear veils" Any one telling people what they can or cannot wear/do/say something is an oppressor.

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Women are sexual objects

Which is exactly why most burqa donning women are fashion, cosmetics and beauty-care obsessives. A woman in a burqah can get away with the kind of bold , gaudy and otherwise deplorable make up that a woman not wearing a burqa never can.
Women in burqas describe themselves and all other women primarily and almost entirely as sexual objects, they identify with nothing but sex as do 'their' men. It's about time the rest of us can live our mostly sex-free lives in peace. It doesn't matter where you stand on the issue(whether you are clad in a burqa or not), a man with a beard and/or a woman in a burqa like any other self-righteous bigot will force you to think/talk about sex , pudendum, death and other things that are not thrust upon innocent bystanders in polite civil society.

As if women not wearing burqas want to star in male sexual fantasies, what a load of @#$%.
Most burqa-clad women only wear burqas to please their husbands, fathers and brothers. All that means is that they want to star in good-wifely-50's-style-sexual-fantasia.

So are men, should men wear burqas, then?

Porn search results indicate that porn featuring the sexual exploitation of women is far more popular than that of men. A woman by wearing a hijab or burqa makes it clear, that she does not want to be a star in male sexual fantasies.

At least a burqa lady's intentions are clear even if she still ends up in a right mess. [[http://www.spittoon.org/archives/2143]]

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

Protection from the glares and stares of men

Because no man has ever glared or stared at a woman in a burqa... refer to burqa porn links above. Men glare at burqa women drivers/know-it-alls all the time. In fact I stare and glare at them in what starts off as utter confusion and ends up in angry frustrated phobia all the time too and I am not a man.

"The point of satire is to point out the ridiculous. I find the black nylon ugly burqa ridiculous. I find the segregation of men and women in a society obsessed with romantic love ridiculous. I love the video and what it stands for: laughing a little bit at what people do. Laughing is not mean, or belittling, or soul destroying – it is just a small and light hearted recognition of the contradictions and frustrations of what you see around you."-shhh [[http://tribune.com.pk/story/99016/debating-the-burqa/]]

This is very common: "I'm protecting myself from the eyes of men(... because wearing a giant black burqa in broad daylight makes me invisible!!!)" [[http://www.spittoon.org/archives/2143]]

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

In response to women have equal rights as men

Why should women be caged when men aren't- double-posted-point above.

In case you haven't noticed arab men cover themselves from head to toe too. I think we'll established it's a traditional thing, partly to preserve modesty (eradicates the distinction between men and women when both wear more or less the same garb) and partly 'cos it's hot and Arabs wear light colored covers that reflect heat/light/sand off. Even Lawrence of Arabia wore an Arab man's dress in the dessert , you'll die of dehydration if you don't.

The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?

Yes because... No because...

I DO NOT WEAR BURQA AND

I do not wear borqa and do not want to, but I respect people who decide to wear it (or not wear it) .
who are we to decide who should and should not wear it.
who decide that the burqa is imposed on woman.
what about the people (women) who are not allowed to wear burqa, or Hidjab around the world? why don't we talk about them?
I am sure that there are women who have been forced to wear hidjab or borqa, directly or indirectly (by social presure), but this is Minimal Compared To Those who are banned from wear it.

now, in the west i would appreciate if you wan to have a country free from foreigh culture /religion etc. but then again you should not interfere on how people behave at home

Debates > The Burqah: Not a symbol of feminine modesty/piety?