Modified:
14 Mar 2010
by Admin

Vote totals:

Yes:

18%

No:

82%

Neutral:

0%

 
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DEBATE: EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.

Nowadays more and more people are starting to accept Evolution. Is there enough evidence for the theory to be taken as fact, as so many people are doing nowadays?





EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.


New species cannot arise through evolution


fixed hi my name dr alex hayward at california universty i have been studying evoluyion for some time now and i believe that god created us and evolution is................... FUCKING FAKE BECAUSE HOW CAN AN INTIALY NEW SPECIES COME OUT OF NOTHING phew sorry about that but its just how i fill _______

Is this an appropriate argument?

It is very clear that you are not, in fact a Dr, and it would appear that your point is unfounded. If you actually had been studying evolution you would clearly realise that evolution isn't a new species coming out of nothing but the process of species coming from the thing before due to random variation. If I'm reading his (?) rant correctly, "Dr Alex" has confused the origins of life with evolution, when these are two very separate things. You're making a first cause argument, which is very likely to be disputed as soon as we get the LHC and find the Higgs Boson. It is interesting that "Dr Alex" claims to be from "California University", a university that happens to be non-existent.

Also, how would it be that a Dr STUDYING Evolution for "some time now" comes about to the conclusion that God created us?


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.


Evolution from chemicals is impossible


Scientists have found that within a cell there are thousands of "biochemical machines". For a cell to function, thousands of these machines must be placed in the correct concentration, at the correct time, and at the correct location. Evolutionists believe that the very first life forms formed from a primordial soup of chemicals. However, without these "machines" no life can "evolve" from it. Also, the odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10 to the power of 243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 0’s). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

Just adding something here ... This is so hilarious ... listen to this guy:

"there is absolutely no reason to suppose that cells of the first organisms were remotely as complex"

It's like saying:

"Well, yes, we can demonstrate that what your saying is provable and true, but why not just use our imagination about the past since we don't have a time travel machine .... "

What a total waste of cyber space! But this is what Evolution is all about at the very core. "Let us imagine that XYZ happened and continue our 'science' using this imaginative reality..."

Utter Nonsense!

Though this is true for "modern" cells, there is absolutely no reason to suppose that "cells" of the first organisms were remotely as complex. Very simple self-replicating systems built of simple RNA and lipid species, completely protein-free, are likely where life began. Also, it is important to remember the timescale involved in the origins of life, billions of years. If you play the lottery every day for a billion years you're going win many times.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.


Evolution of the homo sapien?


If evolution is an ongoing process, why haven't we seen it occurring with homo sapiens till now? It seems like just after the theory of evolution was 'realised', evolution somehow came to a halt. Has the modern human man achieved a state of complete perfection in form and quality by your understanding? Or do you believe that we have yet to evolve into a more sophisticated species?

Of course we are still evolving. Evolution does not drive species to become more sophisticated, just better adapted to their current environment (at a population level). Under normal circumstances it is a slow process, so it's little surprise you're not wowed.

Also, humans have cultural evolution as well as evolution by natural selection acting on them. Cultural 'evolution' is simply the accumulation of information passed down the generations. It moves much quicker than 'biological' evolution by natural selection and can sometimes mask the effects of it. For example, people with Alzheimer's disease die later than their ancestors would have done 10,000 years ago due to medical (i.e. cultural) advances.

Other species also have culture by the way. Like chimps passing on tool use. To a lesser degree, therefore, they also overcome constraints placed on them by the environment (e.g. they can crack open larger nuts).

And there HAS been recent human evolution. One example is lactose tolerance (caused by a very simple single mutation), which occurred at around the same time as people started to drink milk from cattle/sheep more frequently and still is somewhat isolated so that only groups of people descended from shepherding populations can drink milk into adulthood without adverse reactions (mainly bloating). Populations which never had the selection pressure placed on them by their circumstances never acquired lactose tolerance and many Balkan people, for example, are lactose intolerant for this reason.

Another example is that of a particular blood group (known as 'Duffy') which is related to the likelihood of acquiring a specific strain of Malaria (Falciparum vivax). If you have the blood type that confers immunity, you are obviously less at risk from malaria so you are more likely to grow up, have kids, pass the blood type down (since it's a genetic trait and inherited) and live long enough to raise them so they can also have kids of their own and so on. Over time, the blood type spreads. This is evolution by natural selection and accounts for why certain populations have the particular blood type and others don't (those that don't are also those not as much at risk from Malaria).

Similarly, selection for particular skin colours accounts for why darker people tend to be from more equatorial regions where protection from the sun is important while lighter ones come from colder climates where the important factor is avoiding vitamin D deficiency. (We all have dark-skinned ancestors, incidentally, as we all have African ancestors, if you go back far enough).


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.


Absence of intermediate species between man and ape.


If evolution is inevitable in all circumstances, why do apes still exist? Why haven't they evolved into humans? Why aren't there communities of intermediates species that are in the process of transformation from ape to homo sapien? Why is there such a huge gap between the most primitive and the most developed, the beginning and the end of the chain of evolution? To where did the creatures in the middle vanish? Version 1, 24-Aug-2008 13:24 by admin Version 2, 05-Mar-2009 14:01 by admin

Tell me of your apelike ancestors. Were they as condescending as you? Sorry, I don't have an imagination. You will have to provide historical references. 99.9% extinct, wow, I should feel privileged to be in the minority, but not for long. Ah, yes, maladaptive traits, like dark skin and a large jaw and eyebrows, no less? Traits of a less evolved humanoid? Now consider (imagine) it's been a few million years and your cousin is still looking for the bones of his apelike ancestor and denying real history for an illusion called 'evolution'. Sad that his ancestors had to make up an unprovable story and call it science under the guise of searching for the truth; unbiased and ever open to change. What a pile of shit. Happy, admin?

I just had to add something here. Concerning the last paragraph on the other side of the debate. What a load of crock! My 50th cousin will still be HUMAN! THAT is the key point here! Who cares if they "look" different ... I am sure I look different to 100 generations prior, but like them I am still human! I have not began to evolve into a new species for crying out loud.

Ok, clearly you are interested, a good start, now try putting in the effort to learn something more tangable about evolution. Try reading a few books on evolution written for a general audience. Pick books about evolution, not about religion. It will be a challenge for you, which is good. To your points, evolution does NOT take a whole species and turn it magically into another. For speciation to occur, natural selection, genetic diversity within a species, habitat fragmentation and/or enviromental changes act together. Though I'm sure religious zealots would like you to believe that an overwhelming flaw in the theory of evolution is the fact that Humans and apes co-exist, this is actually a silly argument. We did not evolve from existing ape species. Instead, humans and modern apes share common ape-like ancestors that have been extinct for millions of years. Why did these intermediate forms vanish? 99.9% of all life forms that have ever existed on earth are now exinct. From the fossil record it is clear that most species are extinct roughly 10 million years after their first appearance. Life's tough. Many intermediate forms are among these "dropouts", including early hominid and other primate species. As the enviroments that animals, plants, fungi, et cetera, exploit change adaptations that were once favorable can become less favorable. Species are outcompeted, decrease in number and disappear, just like 8-track tape recorders and CRT monitors. As you probably know, there are numerous human traits that are maladaptive in the modern world. Why does there seem to be a gap between the "most developed" and "most primative" species. What gaps do you see? Humans are to apes, as honey bees are to solitary bees. We are not better suited to our environment than dolphins or bats are to theirs. Humans are generalists, like rats. Evolution is not a "chain". It isn't directed toward a purpose other that increased fitness. Species sophistication isn't the goal. Fancier doesn't usually work better. Yes, evolution is a theory, like the theory of gravity. You see, science is supposed to be careful. Where science requires proof, religion assumes fact. Which is more arrogant? In science we refer to ideas, like relativity, that are supported best by evidence as theories. Hypotheses are ideas that require testing. Theories change over time as new evidence develops. It's a superb method. I hope this helps.

Humans ARE apes. We didn't 'evolve from them'. We evolved from 'ape-like common ancestors' the same way you and your 3rd cousin share a great great grandmother. You and your 3rd cousin probably look less alike than you and your brother/sister. Now imagine your 50th cousin - maybe it's me - I probably look even less like you than either your 3rd cousin or your siblings. Now consider that it's been a few million years since you and your chimp cousin shared a great great great great... grandmother. That's how it works.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.


Science based on assumptions and fear of failure...


The main issue I find with Evolution is poor science - period. All the "scientific proof" which is laid out in the open is only possible in a reality which is built ultimately on guesswork and assuming a particular set of scenarios.

There are extremely fundamental questions which thwart the very thought of the theory of Evolution but which are ignored each and every day by those fighting to keep this decadent imaginary fairy tale alive.

In years from now the human race will look back at the theory of Evolution and shake their heads in disbelief at the sheer idiocy of it all.

I am not saying that I have the answer to life on planet Earth, or the Universe for that matter, but I can sure see where it ain't.

The theory of Evolution is also useless. Tell me how we can benefit from a theory which delivers to us never-ending conflict and confusion where chaos rules the day and where only death and torment can benefit us!?

But yes, those who believe in the theory of Evolution have all these incredibly "scientific" reasoning's which they will tell us is just too complex for anyone but the most brilliant minds to comprehend. The irony is that their definition of a 'brilliant mind' is one that comprehends and accepts their alternate reality of Evolution.

Evolution is on the stand not any other theory, including Creationism, since Evolution is the theory being pushed around the globe as Science and Creationism is not.

Here is a pretty good batch of issues that Evolution has to deal with before it is anything more than another religion in a world with too many to begin with. http://ldolphin.org/wmwilliams.html

You might say it's outdated and bring up all kinds of excuses for why the material presented there is "lame" because the author is obviously a religious man etc, but the fact remains that until you Evolutionists prove by all scientific methods that Evolution can surmount these obstacles, your are all just as idiotic and naive as you claim the non-Evolutionists to be.

I have been to several Evolution vs Non-Evolution debates and was dumbfounded after finding that in none of the debates did the Evolutionists attack the points that the other side made and put them to rest. Instead they dodged the points and rambled on about something that they wished was sufficient proof, only to have the opposition bring up some major flaws or doubts with their "proof" which made the Evolutionists look stumped and who then turned to generalizations and looping over and over again. Really nuts!

Why is it that Evolutionists are not the ones challenging the opposition? If Evolution is so solid in it's foundation and "overwhelming scientific evidence" why are the Evolutionists not attacking the naysayers?

And then people in the Evolution communities will say things like "Go get educated before you talk about Evolution". What they really mean to say is "I will not see you as being educated until you have gone through all the Evolutionist jargon and speak our speak and walk our walk ... and till basically you are in agreement with us... ". As i said, your definition of intelligent is someone who accepts the theory of Evolution as you do, or at the very least does not fight it!



EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.


Evidence for Evolution - Vestigial Organs


That's it? Which "vestigial organs"? Name them and then go and get them removed by your local hospital. After that we can discuss how "vestigial" they were!


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

EVOLUTION CAN BE DISPROVED.


Yes it can... but that's a good thing!


The problem Evolution faces is that it is not doing good on overcoming the issues which disprove it!

Science only progresses by overcoming the issues which threaten to disprove the theory. In this way Evolution is very poor science.

Of course it can be disproved! Theoretically, any scientific 'theory' - to even qualify as scientific - must be able to be disproven. In fact, scientists never 'prove' anything - only disprove. And this is how science progresses.

For example, as various scientists have said and quoted, 'fossil rabbits in the Precambrian' would disprove evolution (by natural selection - and it is important to realise that 'evolution' alone is just a loose concept that no one needs to object to as all it means is change over time - the specific theory some take offence at is 'evolution by natural selection'). Happily, the rabbits are still evading discovery.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No


Vote on the overall debate: Evolution can be disproved.

What do you think?  Vote on this debate below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No
1. New species cannot arise through evolution
# 1

nnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooo way evolution is so fake dont u people believe in god!! ?

dhc

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14:52, 04 May 08

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Karma Score: 1367


# 2

The theory of evolution by natural selection can be summed up as follows: - Individuals of any group recognised as a ‘species’ vary. - Some of these variations survive better than others. - The variations are heritable (i.e. the offspring inherit the characteristic which makes the parents different from the rest of the population). - Those that survive best (obviously) are the ones that end up producing most offspring. - Over generations, the frequency of individuals with the most ‘useful’ (for that environment) variations will increase because they are the ones that produce most offspring. The above is obvious to grasp by conducting a thought experiment. Imagine a (very) large room containing a cat and lots of mice. These are particularly unusual mice in that they do not have to mate to produce offspring (for simplicity) – they simply replicate themselves. Imagine that you begin with 30 black mice and 1 albino (white). The mice all reproduce at the same rate and the room is painted white. The black mice strand out so most eventually get killed by the cat. As such, they have less time to produce offspring than the white mice. Since mice, like humans, get their colour from their parents (i.e. this is an inherited characteristic), black mice produce black offspring and white mice produce white ones. Soon the number of black mice has been reduced since they keep getting killed before they have a chance to clone themselves. The white mice, on the other hand, are blending into the background and avoiding the cat. They survive longer and replicate themselves more. Over time, all the black mice die and the white ones remain. The same occurs with wild populations except in a much more complicated manner since the variations are many – not just a single color – and there is sexual reproduction. In the thought experiment the white mouse was included at the start – in the wild it would arise due to a mutation (a ‘mistake’ in the gene that normally produces black pigment. Pigments are proteins. A pigment that is not functional results in albinism). Mutations are random. They occur when DNA replication goes wrong. Adding information is easy. Sometimes a whole genome gets duplicated (as in polyploids). The duplicate genes are then free to mutate and produce new proteins with new functions. Alternatively, a single chromosome or gene gets copied. They can also be lost or even introduced from entirely different species as is the case with retrotransposons – DNA sequences originating from viruses. However, it also isn’t necessary to add new information in this sense at all. As with the mouse example above, a ‘mistake’ in an existing gene is enough to lead to changes in appearance and, therefore, evolution.

dhc

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14:52, 04 May 08

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Karma Score: 1367



2. Evolution from chemicals is impossible
# 1

Scientists have found that within a cell there are thousands of "biochemical machines". For a cell to function, thousands of these machines must be placed in the correct concentration, at the correct time, and at the correct location. Evolutionists believe that the very first life forms formed from a primordial soup of chemicals. However, without these "machines" no life can "evolve" from it. Also, the odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10 to the power of 243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 0’s). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

dhc

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15:02, 04 May 08

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Karma Score: 1367


# 2

This is an irrelevant argument - a straw man. The theory of evolution does not deal with how life first emerged. That is abiogenesis.

Evolution only explains speciation and changes in organisms over time ONCE life has emerged.

There is, however, on-going research into how life did first emerge and it is very likely to have been the result of simple self-replicating RNA-type molecules that later found themselves within a lipid bilayer similar to those that make up cell membranes today. Spherical lipid bilayers form naturally due to simple laws of physics in the same way that soap bubbles do.

Incidentally, Craig Venter, the scientist who worked on sequencing the human genome, has managed to create a synthetic chromosone using chemicals. This is currently being tested as to whether it is able to evolve, and if so, it would dramatically alter the debate as to the 'speciality' of life.

dhc

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15:02, 04 May 08

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Karma Score: 1367



3. Evolution of the homo sapien?
# 1

If evolution is an ongoing process, why haven't we seen it occurring with homo sapiens till now? It seems like just after the theory of evolution was 'realised', evolution somehow came to a halt. Has the modern human man achieved a state of complete perfection in form and quality by your understanding? Or do you believe that we have yet to evolve into a more sophisticated species?

admin

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13:15, 24 August 08

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Karma Score: 14


# 2

Evolution takes far more time than 200 years - it takes millions of years for a new species to arise. We have obviously not become perfect in form (we still have many vestigial organs), and our environment is yet to change is a dramatic enough way for evolution to be stimulated into action.

admin

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13:15, 24 August 08

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Karma Score: 14



4. Absence of intermediate species between man and ape.
# 1

If evolution is inevitable in all circumstances, why do apes still exist? Why haven't they evolved into humans? Why aren't there communities of intermediates species that are in the process of transformation from ape to homo sapien? Why is there such a huge gap between the most primitive and the most developed, the beginning and the end of the chain of evolution? To where did the creatures in the middle vanish?

admin

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13:24, 24 August 08

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Karma Score: 14


# 2

Simple - we did not evolve from modern apes. We evolved from a common ancestor, which has since become extinct. Five minutes worth of research will easily bring up the details of each of the different species which made up the chain which has now led to us.

admin

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13:24, 24 August 08

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Karma Score: 14



5. .
# 1

wuz up?

wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

admin

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19:20, 28 January 09

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Karma Score: 14



6. Science based on assumptions and fear of failure...
# 1

The main issue I find with Evolution is poor science - period. All the "scientific proof" which is laid out in the open is only possible in a reality which is built ultimately on guesswork and assuming a particular set of scenarios.

There are extremely fundamental questions which thwart the very thought of the theory of Evolution but which are ignored each and every day by those fighting to keep this decadent imaginary fairy tale alive.

In years from now the human race will look back at the theory of Evolution and shake their heads in disbelief at the sheer idiocy of it all.

I am not saying that I have the answer to life on planet Earth, or the Universe for that matter, but I can sure see where it ain't.

The theory of Evolution is also useless. Tell me how we can benefit from a theory which delivers to us never-ending conflict and confusion where chaos rules the day and where only death and torment can benefit us!?

But yes, those who believe in the theory of Evolution have all these incredibly "scientific" reasoning's which they will tell us is just too complex for anyone but the most brilliant minds to comprehend. The irony is that their definition of a 'brilliant mind' is one that comprehends and accepts their alternate reality of Evolution.

Evolution is on the stand not any other theory, including Creationism, since Evolution is the theory being pushed around the globe as Science and Creationism is not.

Here is a pretty good batch of issues that Evolution has to deal with before it is anything more than another religion in a world with too many to begin with. http://ldolphin.org/wmwilliams.html

You might say it's outdated and bring up all kinds of excuses for why the material presented there is "lame" because the author is obviously a religious man etc, but the fact remains that until you Evolutionists prove by all scientific methods that Evolution can surmount these obstacles, your are all just as idiotic and naive as you claim the non-Evolutionists to be.

I have been to several Evolution vs Non-Evolution debates and was dumbfounded after finding that in none of the debates did the Evolutionists attack the points that the other side made and put them to rest. Instead they dodged the points and rambled on about something that they wished was sufficient proof, only to have the opposition bring up some major flaws or doubts with their "proof" which made the Evolutionists look stumped and who then turned to generalizations and looping over and over again. Really nuts!

Why is it that Evolutionists are not the ones challenging the opposition? If Evolution is so solid in it's foundation and "overwhelming scientific evidence" why are the Evolutionists not attacking the naysayers?

And then people in the Evolution communities will say things like "Go get educated before you talk about Evolution". What they really mean to say is "I will not see you as being educated until you have gone through all the Evolutionist jargon and speak our speak and walk our walk ... and till basically you are in agreement with us... ". As i said, your definition of intelligent is someone who accepts the theory of Evolution as you do, or at the very least does not fight it!

zetheroo

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06:07, 17 February 10

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Karma Score: 15



1. Evidence for Evolution - Vestigial Organs
# 1

"Body parts thought to be useless remnants of past evolutionary development.”(crit.) Back in 1895, Robert Wiedersheim listed 180 alleged vestigial organs. This list included: tonsils, coccyx (tail bone), thymus, little toe, male nipples, ear nodes, pineal gland, adenoids, appendix, wisdom teeth, parathyroid, ear muscles, body hair, and the nictitating membrane of the eye. Since the compilation of Wiedersheim’s list at the end of the 19th century, we have discovered important biological functions for every one of these so-called vestigial organs. Roy Hartenstein comments on the human appendix: "Long regarded as a vestigial organ with no function in the human body, the appendix is now thought to be one of the sites where immune responses are initiated."

-Grolier Encyclopedia, 1998.

dhc

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15:09, 04 May 08

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Karma Score: 1367


# 2

That's it? Which "vestigial organs"? Name them and then go and get them removed by your local hospital. After that we can discuss how "vestigial" they were!

zetheroo

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06:09, 17 February 10

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Karma Score: 15



2. Yes it can... but that's a good thing!
# 1

In science, all hypotheses - and, once established, theories - need to be possible to disprove. That evolution COULD be disproved is, therefore, excellent news! This simply means that the theory of evolution by natural selection constitutes legitimate science.

A distinction must be drawn between the theoretical possibility of disproving the theory of evolution by natural selection and whether this has already been done.

Yes, evolution by natural selection COULD be disproved if, for example, fossil rabbits were discovered from 3.5 billion years ago when mammals had not yet evolved according to the theory. Or, for instance, if we discovered that mutations are not heritable after all.

However, evolution by natural selection had not, thus far, been disproved.

dhc

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16:19, 04 May 08

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Karma Score: 1367


# 2

The problem Evolution faces is that it is not doing good on overcoming the issues which disprove it!

Science only progresses by overcoming the issues which threaten to disprove the theory. In this way Evolution is very poor science.

zetheroo

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06:13, 17 February 10

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Karma Score: 15



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