Modified:
31 Jan 2010
by Strathclyde

Vote totals:

Yes:

0%

No:

0%

Neutral:

100%

 
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DEBATE: RECRUITMENT OF TEACHERS SHOULD BE "BRAZENLY ELITIST".

David Cameron the leader of the British Conservatives has said that the recruitment of teachers should be 'brazenly elitist'. All schools should have the best teachers so he would make it so that to be a teacher a first or a second class degree would be needed. He aims to increase the status of teachers and make it a more desirable job. Would this policy create better teacher and lead to better schools and results?





RECRUITMENT OF TEACHERS SHOULD BE "BRAZENLY ELITIST".


It reflects how important teachers are.


Its nothing new for a job to require a 2:1 or above at University - many civil service posts and graduate recruitment schemes in larger corporations do so. This is because they consider the work vitally important and therefore need high standards for their staff.

Teachers are vital. To teach someone is to put their future in your hands, to present yourself as a trusted authority figure who will give you information that is true and relevant. To teach children is to be trusted with the future of humanity, that the next generation of humans will be civilised people. This requires a large amount of talent and experience in your subject. Teaching should not be the job that any old person is attracted to just because there's a Government grant for studying to become a teacher. The simple provision that they need to actually work hard at University and get a decent grade is enough to prevent this from happening.

What use is having charisma and drawing the childrens' attention if you're teaching the children wrong information because you didn't learn the subject yourself? Politicians are trained to deliver awe-inspiring speeches, it doesn't matter at all if they don't know anything about the issue they're making policies on and are blatantly lying. The more intelligent children will catch on if the teacher doesn't know their subject and the teacher will lose respect.

one could do horribly at university and still be a great teacher and conversely one could do wonderfully at school and be terrible at teaching.

university/school grades are about test-taking skills, connections and opportunities that are not provided solely by the teacher; who is a sheer guide to a subject , with the job of making it interesting and providing students with a strong footing in its regard.

A person can know and be an expert on teaching and a subject but fail to work optimally in exams because of exam-stress/anxiety/overconfidence/racism/a-host-of-other-reasons.

A person can be brilliant/grade-wise at a subject but be unable to relate it to his/her students. A lot of mathematicians are terrible communicators(mumble/grumble) and like everything to look vague,esoteric and grey making no effort whatsoever to bring their students up to speed/par. Their making love to their subject for an audience that is in awe of their connection; by not inviting their students in the game/process.

the idea is "look at me, I get this, I'm awesome" not "This is how it's done in simpler terms, you can do it too"as it should be ; as teaching is about imparting/bridging knowledge/skill not about putting on a show(and over achievers tend to do the latter)


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

RECRUITMENT OF TEACHERS SHOULD BE "BRAZENLY ELITIST".


Good grades deserve good rewards.


At a time where good grades are continually being devalued - exams are seen as 'too easy' because more and more people are achieving good grades, meaning that many degrees, particularly non-traditional degrees, are seen as worthless. Added to this, the recession means that jobs aren't available to graduates any more even if their degree would normally land them a good job. Graduates want to be appreciated as having achieved a huge personal success, proving that they are intelligent, competent, employable people. It makes sense to reward and praise people who do well. It inspires them to do even better. Most graduates are effectively punished for graduating, by having to spend money on their own ceremony and then being internally exiled from the University facilities. This is enough to ruin anyone's morale. By making a policy such as this, the Government are bringing back rewards for graduates.

Effort cannot be measured unless you supervise someone throughout their entire studies, closely enough to know how much physical and mental strain they are under.

Gifted people should not be penalised for being naturally better. We should be grateful that such people exist, they are a GIFT. Encouraging people to achieve does not mean ignoring people who achieve well - that's how gifted children become jaded and stop achieving well or even turn to crime.

Surely it is not good grades that deserve rewards, but good effort. People naturally born intelligent need not put effort in to get their 2:1 or 1st, or at least not as much as someone who was not blessed in the brain box department. Someone who is not so gifted would feel pleased to get their 2:2, and they worked hard for it. Surely they deserve praise for putting in all their efforts to better themselves. This will also raise children’s hopes on what they too can achieve. If a teacher can go into a classroom and say to the children that they are naturally stupid, but put all their effort in and became a graduate and then a teacher, this will inspire students who similarly struggle with academic work. In short, it is effort that should be rewarded, not grades which have so many other factors influencing it.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

RECRUITMENT OF TEACHERS SHOULD BE "BRAZENLY ELITIST".


Those who can’t do, teach.


A person can choose to teach for many different reasons, not just because they can't get into a front-line job.

Surely, the best teachers are those who choose to teach because they want to teach - they like passing on knowledge to another generation to ensure the future of their chosen subject.

Teaching a skill requires knowledge of that skill or the student won't learn anything and will have no trust in any authority figures. Even if this is largely true of teachers, it is something that is wrong and needs changing.

We learn from the mistakes/failures of our teachers in our field. I, for example had a teacher Ahmed Raza, a Cambridge grad , who couldn't get his P.H.D from Mcgill because he insulted his advisor and his thesis depended solely on the advisor's discretion.He lives with a paranoid xenophobia rather fear of white people trying to rob him, because he has been pushed in the background before. Point being he's brilliant but his mistrust because of initial naviete/blind-trust messed things up for him , so students learn to be careful to draw lines between what is theirs, what is their advisors', save records of all your work and not to be racially paranoid but careful so no one has the chance of doing you wrong.

In the Hollywood film 'Finding Forrestor' there is an instance where Sean Connery in his leading role describes too kinds of 'failed' writers who become teachers:

One is bona fide, because s/he helps her/his students avert the crises that decapitated her/his career. The other, the iconoclast is terrible/cruel/resentful, attempting to smite all traces of talent from his/her students to avenge his/her downfall.

Teachers are never going to be the crème de la crème of their chosen field of study. If they were that good at a subject, they would want to be on the front line doing it, instead of being in a class room teaching it, and watering down the subject to get it at a level to which the children understand. A lawyer, if they loved the law, if they were good at applying the laws of the land, they would not sit and teach these laws to high school children, they would be out in a court room or in a soliciting firm, doing what they love. No matter what pay, no matter the government advertising campaign, this is the truth of the matter, and the truth of the matter it shall remain.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

RECRUITMENT OF TEACHERS SHOULD BE "BRAZENLY ELITIST".


Elite does not mean best


These are all skills that can be taught at teacher training and obtained through on the job experience. They aren't as measurable as grades at University and so can't be used as easily as criteria for who gets a job. If a person has a high grade, it shows they are good at studying, they learn fast and are interested in their subject, so they can be taught the required skills easily.

The policy does not say that a good degree is the ONLY thing required. Like any good job, there will be a variety of skills, experience and personal qualities required.

Elite does mean the 'best' fit catering to students and their symbiotic environment,here in this context.

the popularity of student assessment of teachers like customer satisfaction cards, reveals how institutions put their customers first and teachers are selected accordingly.

Those who get the best marks in university will not necessarily make the best teachers in a school situation. There are extra skills required apart from the knowledge of the subject the teacher is teaching. Skills like the ability to interact with children, keep lessions fun and interesting to keep the students learning at their full potential, and the judgement to be fair and keep the class under control are all at least as necessary as a detailed in depth knowledge of the subject.

Certainly for earlier years being the best in the subject does not matter too much as the lessions the students are being taught will be the foundation work, the groundings that even university students who got a 3rd should be good at.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

RECRUITMENT OF TEACHERS SHOULD BE "BRAZENLY ELITIST".


The policy favours those from more prestigious Universities.


It is not about grades and achievement; it is about getting someone in front of our children who is to be a good role model. Those who go to the red brick Universities are the top of the class. They are the academics of our era. They have achieved consistently through their academics. They would inspire children. This is not an irrelevant detail. In addition, maybe the students from such Universities will have an element of prestige about them; this is good. We need to put people in the class room who have an impeccable accent. If our children are taught in such a way, maybe it will moderate the current epidemic there is amongst the young for talking like a yob; dropping the T’s and G’s. hearing a posh accent every day can only but improve a child’s pronunciation.

The policy states that a degree has to be from a 'good' University - meaning that degrees from ex-polytechnic Universities will not be counted. While in theory a degree from a more prestigious University would be worth more as it would be more challenging and better taught, it is also going to depend a lot on whether you have the money to get into the University, whether you can relocate to the University - influenced by income again, distance and quite a few disabilities - and whether that University happens to teach the exact course you want to study. A degree from a less prestigious University is still a sign that you are academically competent and work hard, so why wouldn't it be accepted? Elitism about relevant details - ie. grade at University in a relevant subject - is a far cry from elitism about prestige and keeping up appearances.

No child is going to appreciate being corrected for using their regional accent. Regional variations are acceptable in spoken English and children will be taught not to use them in written English no matter who the teacher is.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No


Vote on the overall debate: Recruitment of teachers should be "brazenly elitist".

What do you think?  Vote on this debate below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No
1. It reflects how important teachers are.
# 1

Its nothing new for a job to require a 2:1 or above at University - many civil service posts and graduate recruitment schemes in larger corporations do so. This is because they consider the work vitally important and therefore need high standards for their staff.

Teachers are vital. To teach someone is to put their future in your hands, to present yourself as a trusted authority figure who will give you information that is true and relevant. To teach children is to be trusted with the future of humanity, that the next generation of humans will be civilised people. This requires a large amount of talent and experience in your subject. Teaching should not be the job that any old person is attracted to just because there's a Government grant for studying to become a teacher. The simple provision that they need to actually work hard at University and get a decent grade is enough to prevent this from happening.

tehexile

|

19:14, 21 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2072


# 2

one could do horribly at university and still be a great teacher and conversely one could do wonderfully at school and be terrible at teaching.

university/school grades are about test-taking skills, connections and opportunities that are not provided solely by the teacher; who is a sheer guide to a subject , with the job of making it interesting and providing students with a strong footing in its regard.

A person can know and be an expert on teaching and a subject but fail to work optimally in exams because of exam-stress/anxiety/overconfidence/racism/a-host-of-other-reasons.

A person can be brilliant/grade-wise at a subject but be unable to relate it to his/her students. A lot of mathematicians are terrible communicators(mumble/grumble) and like everything to look vague,esoteric and grey making no effort whatsoever to bring their students up to speed/par. Their making love to their subject for an audience that is in awe of their connection; by not inviting their students in the game/process.

the idea is "look at me, I get this, I'm awesome" not "This is how it's done in simpler terms, you can do it too"as it should be ; as teaching is about imparting/bridging knowledge/skill not about putting on a show(and over achievers tend to do the latter)

NADIA999

|

04:09, 23 January 10

|

Karma Score: 5609



2. Good grades deserve good rewards.
# 1

At a time where good grades are continually being devalued - exams are seen as 'too easy' because more and more people are achieving good grades, meaning that many degrees, particularly non-traditional degrees, are seen as worthless. Added to this, the recession means that jobs aren't available to graduates any more even if their degree would normally land them a good job. Graduates want to be appreciated as having achieved a huge personal success, proving that they are intelligent, competent, employable people. It makes sense to reward and praise people who do well. It inspires them to do even better. Most graduates are effectively punished for graduating, by having to spend money on their own ceremony and then being internally exiled from the University facilities. This is enough to ruin anyone's morale. By making a policy such as this, the Government are bringing back rewards for graduates.

tehexile

|

19:23, 21 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2072


# 2

Surely it is not good grades that deserve rewards, but good effort. People naturally born intelligent need not put effort in to get their 2:1 or 1st, or at least not as much as someone who was not blessed in the brain box department. Someone who is not so gifted would feel pleased to get their 2:2, and they worked hard for it. Surely they deserve praise for putting in all their efforts to better themselves. This will also raise children’s hopes on what they too can achieve. If a teacher can go into a classroom and say to the children that they are naturally stupid, but put all their effort in and became a graduate and then a teacher, this will inspire students who similarly struggle with academic work. In short, it is effort that should be rewarded, not grades which have so many other factors influencing it.

LLBlynch

|

09:23, 22 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2628



1. Those who can’t do, teach.
# 1

Teachers are never going to be the crème de la crème of their chosen field of study. If they were that good at a subject, they would want to be on the front line doing it, instead of being in a class room teaching it, and watering down the subject to get it at a level to which the children understand. A lawyer, if they loved the law, if they were good at applying the laws of the land, they would not sit and teach these laws to high school children, they would be out in a court room or in a soliciting firm, doing what they love. No matter what pay, no matter the government advertising campaign, this is the truth of the matter, and the truth of the matter it shall remain.

LLBlynch

|

10:35, 20 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2628


# 2

A person can choose to teach for many different reasons, not just because they can't get into a front-line job. Surely the best teachers are those who choose to teach because they want to teach - they like passing on knowledge to another generation to ensure the future of their chosen subject.

Teaching a skill requires knowledge of that skill or the student won't learn anything and will have no trust in any authority figures. Even if this is largely true of teachers, it is something that is wrong and needs changing.

tehexile

|

18:48, 21 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2072



2. Elite does not mean best
# 1

Those who get the best marks in university will not necessarily make the best teachers in a school situation. There are extra skills required apart from the knowledge of the subject the teacher is teaching. Skills like the ability to interact with children, keep lessions fun and interesting to keep the students learning at their full potential, and the judgement to be fair and keep the class under control are all at least as necessary as a detailed in depth knowledge of the subject.

Certainly for earlier years being the best in the subject does not matter too much as the lessions the students are being taught will be the foundation work, the groundings that even university students who got a 3rd should be good at.

booji

|

14:46, 21 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2961


# 2

These are all skills that can be taught at teacher training and obtained through on the job experience. They aren't as measurable as grades at University and so can't be used as easily as criteria for who gets a job. If a person has a high grade, it shows they are good at studying, they learn fast and are interested in their subject, so they can be taught the required skills easily.

tehexile

|

18:45, 21 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2072



3. The policy favours those from more prestigious Universities.
# 1

The policy states that a degree has to be from a 'good' University - meaning that degrees from ex-polytechnic Universities will not be counted. While in theory a degree from a more prestigious University would be worth more as it would be more challenging and better taught, it is also going to depend a lot on whether you have the money to get into the University, whether you can relocate to the University - influenced by income again, distance and quite a few disabilities - and whether that University happens to teach the exact course you want to study. A degree from a less prestigious University is still a sign that you are academically competent and work hard, so why wouldn't it be accepted? Elitism about relevant details - ie. grade at University in a relevant subject - is a far cry from elitism about prestige and keeping up appearances.

tehexile

|

19:04, 21 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2072

|

Applause: 1


# 2

It is not about grades and achievement; it is about getting someone in front of our children who is to be a good role model. Those who go to the red brick Universities are the top of the class. They are the academics of our era. They have achieved consistently through their academics. They would inspire children. This is not an irrelevant detail. In addition, maybe the students from such Universities will have an element of prestige about them; this is good. We need to put people in the class room who have an impeccable accent. If our children are taught in such a way, maybe it will moderate the current epidemic there is amongst the young for talking like a yob; dropping the T’s and G’s. hearing a posh accent every day can only but improve a child’s pronunciation.

LLBlynch

|

09:18, 22 January 10

|

Karma Score: 2628



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