Modified:
07 Jan 2010
by Leo A Cap...

Vote totals:

Yes:

67%

No:

33%

Neutral:

0%

 
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DEBATE: MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.

It seems to have been an obvious response from the USA, toughen security checks again. More scans, more searches and more delays. This has fallen particularly hard on a blacklist of countries that are deemed most likely to create terrorists. But Nigeria has claimed that it is a knee jerk reaction. If there are extra intensive checks for some countries will al Qaeda not simply use nationals from different countries. These 14 countries are by no means the only areas where there are militant islamists, as shown by the 7/7 bombings and by the trial of four Americans in Pakistan.





MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.


• They are simply a rushed reaction to the attempted terrorist attack, which have not been thought through properly. This is demonstrated by the fact that they were announced on Sunday night and put into action the following day.


The policies are a rush reaction. They will add even greater delays to passengers and may not even prove to be successful in the long run. As has happened in the past terrorists will just find new ways to get around security measures and develop new ideas. For example, the restrictions on certain amounts of liquids led to the recent terrorist suspect concealing powdered explosives in his underwear.



MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.


• The body scanners that have been previously been trialled at UK airports may not even be good enough to detect and stop plots like the recent failed attack on a US airliner.


Security experts have warned that the body scanners are not a 'silver bullet'. Conservative MP Ben Wallace said the scanners would probably not have detected the failed Detroit plane plot and would not have detected the Liquid explosives plot back in 2006. They body scanners which were trialled in the UK at Heathrow and Manchester airports recognise irregularities underneath clothing, but cannot define what these are. This means that explosives could be missed, or that huge delays could be caused by non-threatening objects.



MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.


• We should be relying on intelligence, not technology to detect these attacks.


It does not matter which country people come from, intelligence officials should be able to pick up suspects who are intending to travel before they get to airports and try to board planes. It was not the technology which failed to identify the suspect on Christmas Eve, but the intelligence services. He should have been on a no fly list after his own father expressed concerns about his extremist views to the US Embassy. What is more important than black listing certain countries is improving methods of gathering and trading intelligence within them.

Those who have slipped through the intelligence radar may be picked up at airports more easily due to the scanners which will be an extra obstacle to overcome for anyone intent on carrying out attacks. We cannot expect intelligence authorities to pick up every plot as terrorists become better at carrying out attacks without being infiltrated.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.


• It will lead to further discrimination on the basis of skin colour and perceived religion.


Blacklisting people from certain countries will increase suspicion amongst other travelers and will create suspects out of many innocent people. This could lead to discrimination and prejudice on one side, and increased anger and isolation on the other.

Counter:

Muslims are NOT just 'brown'. Arabs are part European, Uzbeks are white, Uighurs are oriental and Nigerians are Black. Racial profiling means that: Christians(most are brown)/Hindus/Sikhs etc from these 14 countries will be frowned upon for no real reason and then in general, (even brown Europeans(Spanish/Italians)) brown people will continue to be ostracized.

Also non-Muslim terrorists(I.R.A etc) will also find it much easier to terrorize people.

Black/White/Oriental terrorists(and almost all terrorists on the news are American/Arab/British citizens/nationals) as a result get more leeway(lighter checks for/on them) to misbehave and get more meat on their cause(Look at these hypocritical racist westerners etc).

However, as international terrorism against the West almost exclusively comes from the Middle East it is only fair that those suspected of potential terrorist plots will be from the Islamic World.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.


• Attacks are just as likely to be carried out by native citizens.


The London bombers were British citizens and Spanish nationals were involved in the development of the Madrid train bombings. Blacklisting people from certain countries will encourage terrorist organisations to use more home-grown terrorists, an arguably even bigger threat to national security.

since we have been too "politically correct" to treat nationals of blacklist-able countries with higher levels of scrutiny, terrorist organizations have been able to pass them right under our noses, without having to bother with the added problem of finding recruits from countries such as Britain and Spain, or supplying one of their local recruits with a visa and going through the whole lengthy process of gaining citizenship in another country.

Forcing them to go through these processes does not lead to complete prevention, no one is claiming that. but it is an added barrier and a deterrent. setting recruits up in foreign countries and supplying them with money til they gain citizenship, that costs money and it takes years... the whole time the recruits have to conceal their identity and affiliations. inevitably some of them will come to the attention of authorities and perhaps some attacks will be prevented that way.

finding people in countries such as britain and spain who share terrorist organizations' radical views is not "JUST AS LIKELY." here is political correctness overriding all common sense. go out in the street in London and randomly ask people if they believe it is right to blow up American planes because it is the will of Allah. now do the same thing in Iran. you really expect the exact same results? really?


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.


• Just another form of racial profiling


Most terrorists are U.S, British or Arab citizens and not pure nationals of the 14 countries named. The recently caught British Nigerian bypassed security even though he was already on the terror suspects' list before boarding the plane. This goes to show that enough is not being done to check British/U.S/Arab citizens despite many being under the 'radar'.

And we know from New York's commissioner Raymond Kelly and Malcolm Gladwell's conversation that this does not work:

"We have a policy against racial profiling,"Raymond Kelly,told me(Gladwell),"I put it in here in March of the first year I was here.It's the wrong thing to do,and it's also ineffective.If you look at the London bombings,you have three British citizens of Pakistani descent. You have Germaine Lindsay, who is Jamaican. You have the next crew,on July 21st, you are East African, You have a Chechen woman in Moscow in early 2004 who blows herself up in a subway station, so whom do you profile?Look at New York City.forty percent of New Yorkers are born outside of this country(the U.S, and the rest have descended from foreigners). Look at the diversity here. Who am I supposed to profile? ....

"You think terrorists aren't aware of how easy it is to be categorized by ethnicity?"Kelly went on. "Look at the 9/11 hijackers. They came here. They shaved. They went to topless bars.They wanted to blend in.They wanted to look like they part of the American dream.These are not dumb people.Could a terrorist dress up as a Hasidic Jew and walk into the subway, and not be profiled? Yes I think profiling is just nuts" -[1]

Point is, British/U.S/Arab citizens will get off the hook even more easily than they/we have in the past which means more terrorists/terrorism since all the BIG-Terrorist-dogs have these citizenships/nationalities: purely counterproductive move.

counter:

Local people(from the 14 countries named) do not go to the U.S/U.K for the purpose of terrorism (they go for tourism ,higher education and employment mainly) .

And "NO" immigrants aren't the issue. MOST terrorists are generally BORN in the U.K/U.S/Saudi-Arabia, unemployed or barely educated or frustrated by their maltreatment IN the west, they are 'western' because they are born there or that they have an incredible amount of international exposure(meaning they travel a lot).

This isn't about "Political Correctness" , it is about common sense: if BRITS/Americans/ARABS are let off the hook (even more than before (Nigerian(Brit) guy, shoe bomb-guy(Brit),7/7(BRITS), etc etc(mostly BRITS))

And people are hypocritically ostracized for being brown/or-looking-a-certain-way in countries that claim to be moderate/liberal; then home-grown terrorism (by racial/religious minorities) will naturally escalate.

  1. ^ 'What the dog saw'-Malcolm Gladwell

yes, terrorists are already smart enough to go through the painstaking process of setting up their recruits overseas to gain citizenship, live there for years, blend in, etc.

WE SHOULD MAKE SURE IT STAYS THAT WAY.

we try so desperately to be "politically correct" that we are lucky they havent just sent out a bunch of locally recruited newbies right under our noses and exploded a dozen more planes already. in fact their whole "blending in schemes" to date have been made entirely pointless by our dogmatism about treating everyone the same and labeling any behavior that deviates from this standard as "racism." they must think we're truly a bunch of morons.

as long as these terrorists are forced to go through the process of gaining citizenship in another country, it makes things more difficult and time-consuming for them. i dont think that is a bad thing.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

MAKING CITIZENS FROM A BLACKLIST OF COUNTRIES UNDERGO TOUGHER AIRPORTS SECURITY CHECKS IS WRONG AND WON’T HELP.


• It will make it harder for those involved in international terrorism to carry out attacks.


Terrorists on the news, are mainly Arab, British and American citizens/nationals. And people from these countries will not undergo stringent checks.

Counterproductive move.

And exponential checking for people from these fourteen Countries will give terrorists who use the grievances of people from these fourteen countries as incentive to perform terrorism will only have more on their plates.

Terrorist organisations will have to adapt to new and tougher security measures. This could delay future attacks, allowing more to be infiltrated by intelligence.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No


Vote on the overall debate: Making citizens from a blacklist of countries undergo tougher airports security checks is wrong and won’t help.

What do you think?  Vote on this debate below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No
1. • They are simply a rushed reaction to the attempted terrorist attack, which have not been thought through properly. This is demonstrated by the fact that they were announced on Sunday night and put into action the following day.
# 1

The policies are a rush reaction. They will add even greater delays to passengers and may not even prove to be successful in the long run. As has happened in the past terrorists will just find new ways to get around security measures and develop new ideas. For example, the restrictions on certain amounts of liquids led to the recent terrorist suspect concealing powdered explosives in his underwear.

Melissa89

|

19:52, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 109



2. • The body scanners that have been previously been trialled at UK airports may not even be good enough to detect and stop plots like the recent failed attack on a US airliner.
# 1

Security experts have warned that the body scanners are not a 'silver bullet'. Conservative MP Ben Wallace said the scanners would probably not have detected the failed Detroit plane plot and would not have detected the Liquid explosives plot back in 2006. They body scanners which were trialled in the UK at Heathrow and Manchester airports recognise irregularities underneath clothing, but cannot define what these are. This means that explosives could be missed, or that huge delays could be caused by non-threatening objects.

Melissa89

|

19:58, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 109



3. • We should be relying on intelligence, not technology to detect these attacks.
# 1

It does not matter which country people come from, intelligence officials should be able to pick up suspects who are intending to travel before they get to airports and try to board planes. It was not the technology which failed to identify the suspect on Christmas Eve, but the intelligence services. He should have been on a no fly list after his own father expressed concerns about his extremist views to the US Embassy. What is more important than black listing certain countries is improving methods of gathering and trading intelligence within them.

Melissa89

|

20:05, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 109


# 2

Those who have slipped through the intelligence radar may be picked up at airports more easily due to the scanners which will be an extra obstacle to overcome for anyone intent on carrying out attacks. We cannot expect intelligence authorities to pick up every plot as terrorists become better at carrying out attacks without being infiltrated.

Melissa89

|

20:20, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 109



4. • It will lead to further discrimination on the basis of skin colour and perceived religion.
# 1

Blacklisting people from certain countries will increase suspicion amongst other travellers and will create suspects out of many innocent people. This could lead to discrimination and prejudice on one side, and increased anger and isolation on the other.

Melissa89

|

20:08, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 109


# 2

However, as international terrorism against the West almost exclusively comes from the Middle East it is only fair that those suspected of potential terrorist plots will be from the Islamic World.

PaulOBrien

|

20:46, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 39



5. • Attacks are just as likely to be carried out by native citizens.
# 1

The London bombers were British citizens and Spanish nationals were involved in the development of the Madrid train bombings. Blacklisting people from certain countries will encourage terrorist organisations to use more home-grown terrorists, an arguably even bigger threat to national security.

Melissa89

|

20:13, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 109


# 2

since we have been too "politically correct" to treat nationals of blacklist-able countries with higher levels of scrutiny, terrorist organizations have been able to pass them right under our noses, without having to bother with the added problem of finding recruits from countries such as Britain and Spain, or supplying one of their local recruits with a visa and going through the whole lengthy process of gaining citizenship in another country.

Forcing them to go through these processes does not lead to complete prevention, no one is claiming that. but it is an added barrier and a deterrent. setting recruits up in foreign countries and supplying them with money til they gain citizenship, that costs money and it takes years... the whole time the recruits have to conceal their identity and affiliations. inevitably some of them will come to the attention of authorities and perhaps some attacks will be prevented that way.

finding people in countries such as britain and spain who share terrorist organizations' radical views is not "JUST AS LIKELY." here is political correctness overriding all common sense. go out in the street in London and randomly ask people if they believe it is right to blow up American planes because it is the will of Allah. now do the same thing in Iran. you really expect the exact same results? really?

yxmyxm

|

03:57, 07 January 10

|

Karma Score: 94



6. • Just another form of racial profiling
# 1

Most terrorists are U.S, British or Arab citizens and not pure nationals of the 14countries names. The recently caught British Nigerian bypassed security even though he was already on the terror suspects' list before boarding the plane. This goes to show that enough is not being done to check British/U.S/Arab citizens despite many being under the 'radar'.

NADIA999

|

00:43, 06 January 10

|

Karma Score: 5609


# 2

yes, terrorists are already smart enough to go through the painstaking process of setting up their recruits overseas to gain citizenship, live there for years, blend in, etc.

WE SHOULD MAKE SURE IT STAYS THAT WAY.

we try so desperately to be "politically correct" that we are lucky they havent just sent out a bunch of locally recruited newbies right under our noses and exploded a dozen more planes already. in fact their whole "blending in schemes" to date have been made entirely pointless by our dogmatism about treating everyone the same and labeling any behavior that deviates from this standard as "racism." they must think we're truly a bunch of morons.

as long as these terrorists are forced to go through the process of gaining citizenship in another country, it makes things more difficult and time-consuming for them. i dont think that is a bad thing.

yxmyxm

|

04:13, 07 January 10

|

Karma Score: 94



1. • It will make it harder for those involved in international terrorism to carry out attacks.
# 1

Terrorist organisations will have to adapt to new and tougher security measures. This could delay future attacks, allowing more to be infiltrated by intelligence.

Melissa89

|

20:17, 05 January 10

|

Karma Score: 109


# 2

Terrorists on the news, are mainly Arab, British and American citizens/nationals. And people from these countries will not undergo stringent checks.

Counterproductive move.

And exponential checking for people from these fourteen Countries will give terrorists who use the grievances of people from these fourteen countries as incentive to perform terrorism will only have more on their plates.

NADIA999

|

00:56, 06 January 10

|

Karma Score: 5609



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