Modified:
07 Feb 2010
by Jessica E...

Vote totals:

Yes:

75%

No:

25%

Neutral:

0%

 
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DEBATE: SHOULD DAVID MILIBAND LEGISLATE AGAINST WAR CRIMES WARRANTS FOR ISRAELI POLITICIANS?

In the wake of attempted arrests of Ehud Barak and Tzipi Livni when the Israeli ministers had planned visits to Britain, Foreign Secretary David Milliband has vowed to change the law to prevent campaigners who wish to arrest Israeli leaders for 'war crimes'. Mr Miliband plans to allow arrest warrants to be issued only if the Attorney General has given consent. But he has been strongly criticised for doing this by the Muslim Council of Britain. Is David Miliband removing a fundemental right? Or are Palestinian campaigners denying progress in the Middle East peace process by not allowing Israeli leaders to meet with the UK government in London?





SHOULD DAVID MILIBAND LEGISLATE AGAINST WAR CRIMES WARRANTS FOR ISRAELI POLITICIANS?


This is about peace, not about being pro-Israel


Pro-Israel campaigners in the UK could just as easily issue arrest warrants against senior members of Hamas. But what good will it do?

We need to have dialogue, and the UK has a vital role to play in the peace process in the Middle East. But once London becomes a haven for barmy arrest warrants, the UK's role in the peace process will be a laughing stock, if the law can be abused by any old lunatic with an ill-sustained grudge, whether they be Jew or Muslim, pro-Israel or Palestine.

This isn't about taking sides, it's about allowing the political process to take place, not unchecked, but not unnecessarily hindered.

The United Nations backs the gaza strip war crimes report.[1]

To oversimplify this issue to being black and white = Muslim vs Jew is a fatal error in botching the facts. Many Jews are anti-Zionist. Many Muslims couldn't care less.

"U.K. Zionists 'bemused' by British Jews' support for Goldstone report"-[2]

Humanitarian authorities versus self-righteous heinous war crime purporting Zionists is the real battle/issue.

Yet another pro-war/conflict Israeli leader elected-[3]

Noam Chomsky and Jon/John Stewart are both American Jews with a very large anti-Zionist/anti-Gaza-war-crimes following;each.

Israel has always been difficult, will continue to be so and Britain must do what's 'right' rather than be bullied by Israel to apologize repetitively to keep the peace.

Britain is always the bigger person, why can't Israel(be coerced to) apologize for her (notorious/ubiquitously-known-thanks-to-the-BBC) war crimes for once?

  1. ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhfXt26kAj0
  2. ^ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1132156.html
  3. ^ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/10/AR2009021003473.html


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No

SHOULD DAVID MILIBAND LEGISLATE AGAINST WAR CRIMES WARRANTS FOR ISRAELI POLITICIANS?


This undermines our legal system


The Israeli government cannot dictate our legal system. Miliband has shown he is capable of giving in to them. What's next? Pressure from Robert Mugabe.

This is allowing politics to erode fundemental legal rights, conventions which are centuries old.

This is not the separation of powers we hold dear in Britain, and will have grave consequences on our democracy. It will do great damage to our reputation at home and abroad.



SHOULD DAVID MILIBAND LEGISLATE AGAINST WAR CRIMES WARRANTS FOR ISRAELI POLITICIANS?


The conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitute grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention


On the contrary, as Colonel Richard Kemp has been widely reported as stating, the IDF acted with incredible restraint; far more restraint than any army in history. The action itself was forced upon Israel due to the relentless, 8 year barrage of missiles from Gaza into Southern Israel, what other Western Civilised Country would have put up with this behaviour from a neighbouring Country for 8 years? Israel only targetted combatants in Gaza, areas hiding combatants, areas giving shelter to combatants and areas storing weaponry for combatants. There will always be collateral dmagae in any warfare scenario. Israel, according to Col Kemp , kept this to an absolute minimum, even to the point of risking Israeli soldiers lives. Is America doing this in Afghanistan? Is Britain doing this in Afghanistan? There is NO Prima Facie or any other type of Case for Israeli ministers to answer for in the UK or anywhere else. For how much longer does the Attorney General need to discuss this? What is the problem? The problem is the incesent lobbying from the Pro-Palestinain terrorist cabal in the UK and the politicians like Jack Straw who, with a very large Moslem population in their constituencies are scared to act and with the General Election looming this problem has been exascerbated.

However, Public Record? The biased Goldstone Report has now been discredited and no longer has any credibility. This is now a matter of Public Record.

For Israeli politicians, members of the only Democracy in the Midddle East to be threatened by and risk the prospect of legal action by a supposed ally - the UK - is outragious and cannot be justified.

There would appear to be a prima facie case against former and/or present Israeli ministers, of authorising the commission of war crimes against Palestinian civilians in Gaza, a year ago, in which hundreds of children were killed by the IDF.

However, the Attorney General is now reported as discussing an amendment to British law that would give her the ability to block the arrest of Israelis politicians, travelling to the United Kingdom, who are alleged to have committed war crimes, but would not block action against Nazi war criminals, Afghan war lords or fugitives alleged responsible for genocide. This apparently in an attempt to placate Israeli politicians who fear war crimes prosecutions if they visit Britain.

The government opinion being that whilst genuine war criminals should be brought to justice, the British justice system should be prevented from being manipulated for political ends.

However, it is a matter of public record that the UN Fact-Finding Mission led by Justice Richard Goldstone released its report on the Gaza conflict, in September last, in which it concluded that 'there is evidence indicating serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed by Israel during the Gaza conflict, and that Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity'.

"The mission concluded that actions amounting to war crimes and possibly, in some respects, crimes against humanity, were committed by the Israel Defense Force (IDF)."

"The mission finds that the conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitute grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected persons and as such give rise to individual criminal responsibility," the report's executive summary said. "It also finds that the direct targeting and arbitrary killing of Palestinian civilians is a violation of the right to life."

It went on to criticize the "deliberate and systematic policy on the part of the Israeli armed forces to target industrial sites and water installations," and the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields.

On the objectives and strategy of Israel's military operation, the mission concluded that military planners deliberately followed a doctrine which involved "the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations."

The criminal acts to which the report refers are assumed to have been authorised by the ministers of the then Israeli government but it would appear that the British government is considering amending UK law to allow such persons immunity from prosecution on British soil. That cannot be justified.


What do you think?  Vote on this point below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No


Vote on the overall debate: Should David Miliband legislate against war crimes warrants for Israeli politicians?

What do you think?  Vote on this debate below.
Absolutely Yes
Strongly Yes
Mostly Yes
Partially Yes
Neutral
Partially No
Mostly No
Strongly No
Absolutely No
1. This is about peace, not about being pro-Israel
# 1

Pro-Israel campaigners in the UK could just as easily issue arrest warrants against senior members of Hamas. But what good will it do?

We need to have dialogue, and the UK has a vital role to play in the peace process in the Middle East. But once London becomes a haven for barmy arrest warrants, the UK's role in the peace process will be a laughing stock, if the law can be abused by any old lunatic with an ill-sustained grudge, whether they be Jew or Muslim, pro-Israel or Palestine.

This isn't about taking sides, it's about allowing the political process to take place, not unchecked, but not unnecessarily hindered.

Jessica Elgot

|

13:55, 30 December 09

|

Karma Score: 227


# 2

The United Nations backs the gaza strip war crimes report.[1]

To oversimplify this issue to being black and white = Muslim vs Jew is a fatal error in botching the facts.

"U.K. Zionists 'bemused' by British Jews' support for Goldstone report"[2]

Humanitarian authorities versus self-righteous heinous war crime purporting Zionists is the real battle/issue.

Yet another pro-war/conflict Israeli leader -[3] Noam Chomsky and Jon/John Stewart are both American Jews with a very large anti-Zionist/anti-Gaza-war-crimes following;each.

  1. ^ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhfXt26kAj0
  2. ^ http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1132156.html
  3. ^ http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/10/AR2009021003473.html

NADIA999

|

04:25, 31 December 09

|

Karma Score: 5609



1. This undermines our legal system
# 1

The Israeli government cannot dictate our legal system. Miliband has shown he is capable of giving in to them. What's next? Pressure from Robert Mugabe.

This is allowing politics to erode fundemental legal rights, conventions which are centuries old.

This is not the separation of powers we hold dear in Britain, and will have grave consequences on our democracy. It will do great damage to our reputation at home and abroad.

Jessica Elgot

|

13:51, 30 December 09

|

Karma Score: 227



2. The conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitute grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention
# 1

There would appear to be a prima facie case against former and/or present Israeli ministers, of authorising the commission of war crimes against Palestinian civilians in Gaza, a year ago, in which hundreds of children were killed by the IDF.

However, the Attorney General is now reported as discussing an amendment to British law that would give her the ability to block the arrest of Israelis politicians, travelling to the United Kingdom, who are alleged to have committed war crimes, but would not block action against Nazi war criminals, Afghan war lords or fugitives alleged responsible for genocide. This apparently in an attempt to placate Israeli politicians who fear war crimes prosecutions if they visit Britain.

The government opinion being that whilst genuine war criminals should be brought to justice, the British justice system should be prevented from being manipulated for political ends.

However, it is a matter of public record that the UN Fact-Finding Mission led by Justice Richard Goldstone released its report on the Gaza conflict, in September last, in which it concluded that 'there is evidence indicating serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed by Israel during the Gaza conflict, and that Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity'.

"The mission concluded that actions amounting to war crimes and possibly, in some respects, crimes against humanity, were committed by the Israel Defense Force (IDF)."

"The mission finds that the conduct of the Israeli armed forces constitute grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected persons and as such give rise to individual criminal responsibility," the report's executive summary said. "It also finds that the direct targeting and arbitrary killing of Palestinian civilians is a violation of the right to life."

It went on to criticize the "deliberate and systematic policy on the part of the Israeli armed forces to target industrial sites and water installations," and the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields.

On the objectives and strategy of Israel's military operation, the mission concluded that military planners deliberately followed a doctrine which involved "the application of disproportionate force and the causing of great damage and destruction to civilian property and infrastructure, and suffering to civilian populations."

The criminal acts to which the report refers are assumed to have been authorised by the ministers of the then Israeli government but it would appear that the British government is considering amending UK law to allow such persons immunity from prosecution on British soil. That cannot be justified.

Colin Dale

|

08:25, 09 January 10

|

Karma Score: 3


# 2

On the contrary, as Colonel Richard Kemp has been widely reported as stating, the IDF acted with incredible restraint; far more restraint than any army in history. The action itself was forced upon Israel due to the relentless, 8 year barrage of missiles from Gaza into Southern Israel, what other Western Civilised Country would have put up with this behaviour from a neighbouring Country for 8 years? Israel only targetted combatants in Gaza, areas hiding combatants, areas giving shelter to combatants and areas storing weaponry for combatants. There will always be collateral dmagae in any warfare scenario. Israel, according to Col Kemp , kept this to an absolute minimum, even to the point of risking Israeli soldiers lives. Is America doing this in Afghanistan? Is Britain doing this in Afghanistan? There is NO Prima Facie or any other type of Case for Israeli ministers to answer for in the UK or anywhere else. For how much longer does the Attorney General need to discuss this? What is the problem? The problem is the incesent lobbying from the Pro-Palestinain terrorist cabal in the UK and the politicians like Jack Straw who, with a very large Moslem population in their constituencies are scared to act and with the General Election looming this problem has been exascerbated.

However, Public Record? The biased Goldstone Report has now been discredited and no longer has any credibility. This is now a matter of Public Record.

For Israeli politicians, members of the only Democracy in the Midddle East to be threatened by and risk the prospect of legal action by a supposed ally - the UK - is outragious and cannot be justified.

Jon_i_Cohen

|

08:44, 06 February 10

|

Karma Score: 32



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