Are Muslims able to Integrate with British Society
Islam, 'like' many other Religions, promotes active discrimination between Believers & Non-Believers as a part of its core doctrine.
Unlike the Bible it has never been Reformed.
Quranic Quote Surah 3:28 States "Do not take un-believers as friends...".
Such divisions in British Society can only prove to further weaken our Country(if we weren't secular,that is).
You can also add to the debate by leaving a comment at the end of the page.
The quote is incorrect , you will only find this 'allegedly Quranic quote on Nonmuslim websites and NOT in the holy Quran'
The actual quote is 'The Jews are not the friends of the Muslims' in the 'CONTEXT" that a certain Jewish tribe had broken a treaty.
Outside of this The Prophet Mohammed(p.b.u.h) had two Jewish wives, Muslims and Jews fought off foreign invaders side by side. [[http://soundvision.com/Info/politics/jewhistory.asp]]
[[http://www.lookisrael.com/files/muslimsqa.php]] [[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/01/gallup-jews-muslims-come_n_194400.html]]. So, essentially the message in the Quranic quote was that that tribe had broken the treaty NOT that a Muslim should never befriend a Jew.
Marraiges with people of book(Jews,Christians and Muslims) are permitted/halal/even-at-times-encouraged-for-the-sake-of-peace(obviously friendship is too).
To conclude, I think fanatical-atheists/religion-haters/bigots should refrain from fabricating absolute gibberish on their websites; fake(it is more than obvious that the person who wrote the debate motion has NEVER picked up or read from a real/tangible Quran/Koran) Quranic quotes being one example; accompanied by:
The absurd claim that Einstein the father of the 'watch-maker analogy' was not a creationist or did not believe in God: ANYBODY who has read Einstein's quotes on religion knows full well that he believed in creation and God , not a theistic interventionist God but definitely a 'creator'. The same is falsely propagated about the also late, Stephen Hawking: He had expressed apathy towards the term atheist and strictly called himself a deist(believer in a God/creator) to his dying day but view a rubbish blog and some bone-headed bozo differs (forget what Hawking and Einstein said about their beliefs these 'bloggers' with their exhaustively void(read 'non-existent') credentials 'know better').
Obviously, again not a direct quote from the 'awliyaa', please bother to cite your 'real'/'actual' sources.
This Debate is often distracted (strawman arguments, Kitman) with allegations of misinterpretation of the Koran. I urge the reader to make their own mind up by visiting this site which enables you to read or listen to all (most) translations in the languge of your choice http://tanzil.net/#3:28 .
Koran Surah 3:28
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah
yes Muhammed was a warlord so this was unsurprisingly written during a time of War/Persecution - could this not also be interpreted as relevant in Britain today?
Islam is always at war with unbelievers somewhere in the world "The west Supporting Israel etc."
There are of course other unpleasent Sura's that need investigating:-
The current lack of Integration is hardly surprising
Muslim women can only marry Muslim men
Muslim men may not marry Christian or Jewish women if the Muslim community is a small minority in a huge non-Muslim society
[[Dr Yusuf Al Qaradhawi]]
Islamic Scholars state that the Koran cannot be properly understood in any language other than Arabic, This leads to multiple (linguistic) interpretations, this is further complicated with contextual relevance & so Black may be interpreted as Grey, especially if this situation suits your purpose (Kitman)
Muslims will not tolerate unkind words about their religion & always react to abuse with greater abuse, violence with greater violence.
Readers are invited to make their own minds up by visiting http://tanzil.net/#17:32
Out of context Biblical quotes on the web that say nonbelivers,witches etc should be killed
"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
and finally this verse gives reason for the crusades.
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)"-[[http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_verses_in_the_bible_advocate_killing_non_believers]]
Christianity has come a long way, so can Islam.
When a country is secular it encourages and propagates a culture and society of religious tolerance not of murderous violent extremism(And ALL religions/belief-systems have Violent-Extremist-groups including Atheism)
"Suffice it to say that the British People do not practice ancient religious doctrines,": The British people 'include' Muslim Brits. To claim that Muslim Brits are not British because they/we are Muslim is not in sync with secular British values.
Western Societys no longer advocate killing Non-Beleivers, Witches etc. Islam which shuns Change or Reform of the original message/Quran certainly does ie, Hypocrisy.
This should not turn into a theological battle between Christianity & Islam, It will achieve nothing other than to cloud the Issue at hand.
Suffice it to say that the British People do not practice ancient religeous doctrines, whereas many muslims want to (Hadith's & Sharia).
The rule of the Church in the dark ages is also not compatible with 'BRITISH secular societal' values
Does that mean Christians(the uh majority of the British people) should be given the boot?
There is a reason for 'secularism' in British society; we should not forget that reason.
Christians can/do integrate with British society despite anti-non-christian religious text/s and so can Muslims.
British societal values are about tolerance,humanitarianism; acceptance irrespective of race/religion/colour/creed and the believer(Christians, followed by muslims) majority abides by these values full well.
Again with the fallacy that British Muslims aren't British.
British people are British irrespective of religion.
Muslims just as Christians just as Jews just as atheists integrate with British society; while not abandoning certain aspects of their religion. Integration is not giving up your beliefs.
Christians go to Church. Muslims go to mosques. Jews to synagogues, atheists congregate at homes/libraries/restaurants. That doesn't stop anyone, any British person from integrating with British society and her secular values.
Jews and Muslims eat kosher meat and no ham/pork/bacon but again that does not mean that they are integrated with society as a larger whole.
It is ridiculous to state that the freedom to choose who you are,what you believe and what you wear is not compatible with British societal values. Or that one must strip him/herself of his/her beliefs/individual-identity/personality to be British.
To me standing up on a podium in central London voicing your views and concerns freely was/is a very important part of British society.
The Bible has been Translated & Reformed. Muslims will not allow this to happen with The Koran.
The British are too civilized to allow our Laws to be influenced by the teachings of a 1400 yr old Tribal Warlord.
Muslims take full advantage of Britains Liberal Societal Values whilst secretly promoting the values of a Primitive Arab WarLord who Married a 6 yr old Child
>>>>New user adding to the above point<<<<<
I must say I agree. In Saudi Arabia, Islam is the law of the land (Sh'aria), the people are Muslim. They are happily part of Saudi society.
In the UK, the law is secular. Their may be some aspects that Islam would frown upon. Muslims who follow Islam accept that part os UK society go against their beliefs. Thus they cannot integrate fully.
Somebody has not read the JESUS chapter of the Bible that's Antisemitism if there is such a thing.
Um right so, according to the Bible, pagan Romans and Jewish clergy made Jesus Christ's life miserable and ultimately crucified him.
Yes, there is talk of forgiveness and tolerance 'turn the other cheek' in the Bible and in the Quran & Hadith there's the parable of a woman throwing trash on Prophet Muhammed every day without him saying a word, then him going to see her on the one day that she didn't chuck garbage on him and taking care of her during her illness.
And there is also talk of retribution:
in the Quran:"Fight with those who fight with you"
in the Bible:"An eye for an eye"
'distorted' religious texts taken without/minus/sans context lead to misinterpretation, as in the case of my contender; here.
All religions advocate Friendliness/forgiveness and all religions/beliefs(including atheism) claim to be the exclusive tautology.
The Title of this Debate is NOT Christianity V Islam
Muslims always say you can not criticize Islam without learning Arabic & studying the Koran & Hadith's for years.
When undisputed translations are quoted they then say "O but thats out of Context", "we were at war at that time....etc.etc". Whilst admitting (under pressure) that the verse is very relevant to todays society
Islam does not Advocate Friendliness with Unbeleivers by any stretch of the imagination, it forbids it. Ref Surah 3:28 and many, many others.
Caliphs were voted to power
not divinely selected.
In fact vicegerent Muhammed(peace be upon him) was dead after giving his vote to Abu Bakr Siddique for the First caliph; all the other caliphs won by popular vote(without God/Allah or the last Prophet's say) and the division of the Sunni/Shia sects resulted from disputes around who should succeed Hazrat Ali as caliph(since the last messenger allegedly named 'ONLY' one and the four people closest to him had taken their turns)
Prime ministers & members of Parliament are elected to represent the views & wishes of the people (supposedly) & legislate on their behalf
Caliphs are subserviant to Sharia Law & the perceived will of a fictional being.
The golden age
Baby steps towards secularism and intellectual advancements in Spain under Muslim rule.
The British Empire, The Greatest the world has ever seen, both in terms of Land Mass & Population.
Under British Rule.
Your Golden Age was not so nice for non believers who were treated as second class citizens
Excerpt from your link
A Muslim must not massage a Jew or a Christian nor throw away his refuse nor clean his latrines. The Jew and the Christian are better fitted for such trades, since they are the trades of those who are vile.
In Islamic Spain, Jews and Christians were tolerated if they:
acknowledged Islamic superiority
accepted Islamic power
paid a tax called Jizya to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes
did not try to convert Muslims
complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:
restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge
restrictions on building synagogues and churches
not allowed to carry weapons
could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim
could not bequeath anything to a Muslim
could not own a Muslim slave
a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)
a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court
dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury
Britain is not a religious state
While we technically have the Church of England as our state religion it is difficult to argue that this is really the case. In reality we are multi religious as we are multiethnic. That various religious groups who were once thought to have been radical, a hotbed of terrorism or radical and wrong in some way have integrated shows that almost any religion can be integrated. There were pogroms against the jews in the middle ages and they were eventually expelled only to be allowed back in, they have only benefited Britain with their busininess acumen and philanthropy. Roman Catholics were seen as dangerous subversives for right up to the nineteenth century, the idea is pretty laughable now. I see no reason why Islam should in the long term fail to integreate into British society, at the moment there may be a few problems but sooner or later both sides will see the benefits of working together and taking the best from both british (already polygot) and the various muslim cultures.
I started this debate 3 years ago, currently two thirds agree that Muslims can integrate with British Society, this weekend I watched TheBigQuestions on BBC where one third of the debate time was allocted to a question in which a devout Muslim was asking. Should the Monarchy be free to choose a Religion of their own choice? As an Atheist I would have preffered such valuable time spent on asking "How can we prevent a Child dieing every 5 seconds of Hunger". I personally feel Islam does not enhance our society, it distracts, stagnates & be-littles us!
These few problems you speak of include the murder of innocent British People in London by Muslim Suicide Bombers.
Muslims provide nothing more than cheap labour for our Corporate Elite.
Britains do not want your religious dogma
Muslims do not want to merge into the infidels society, Muslim Ghetos are proof of this
Islam can never condone Democracy
Sunni Islam stipulates that the head of state, the caliph, should be selected by Muslims or their representatives Followers of Shia Islam believe the caliph should be an imam chosen by God.
Greek: δημοκρατία - (dēmokratía) "the power to the people"
This would inevitably run into conflict with the Laws of Muhammed & Allah, whose Judgement is both superior & final in the eyes & hearts of practicing Muslims.
Islam is not just another Religion, it brings with it Laws & Customs which are just as highly regarded as Faith,
So you Disagree with Wikipedia then which states "The term caliphate (from the Arabic خلافة or khilāfa) refers to a theocracy,"
A caliphate 'IS' a democracy.
If you can call the first 'democracy'(Draco) in Athens (where the slave class(the majority of Athenian citizens) did not have voting rights) a democracy, then a caliphate is a much truer democratic model.
There's a vote, hello?
Read up on the caliphate here:[[http://www.caliphate.eu/2007/10/tony-blair-on-16th-july-2005-at-labour.html]]
Muslims can Lie to non-believers
This position is unique to Islam and not condoned by other religions
This is called [[Taqiyya]], most muslims will simply say this is only allowed if someone has a Gun at your head and will practice [[Kitman]] by not also informing you that Muhammed personnaly condoned lying by his Assasins.
There are 3 Main Reasons when a muslim is allowed/sometimes encouraged to lie (Practice Taqiyya) to non believers. The Context & Interpretation is so open in Islam that there are few definitive situations where it is not allowed.
Kitman means only telling half truths, practicing secrecy, concealment, flooding with scripture designed to distract from the basic question.
"Truly Allah is the greaatest of deceiers" Well known Islamic saying
Please don't call me a Liar, I bought a Translated version of the Koran 3 years ago from Amazon.
I would prefer it if Muslims were able to Integrate properly, then I would not have to spend my time countering your insults
Yes there are absolutely loads of Videos & Websites condeming Islam.
I did not say only Muslims Lie because this would be a stupid thing to say, I said the Koran allows believers to lie.
Taqiyaa & Kitman are not books. Please Google these words and make your own mind up about their meaning.
Muslims will usually try to confuse you by throwing up grey smoke, off topic arguments, then accuse you of lieing and insult you as a last resort. Try it yourselves, it never fails to amuse me.
Any one can lie to any one: To claim that one has to be muslim to lie is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
And MUSLIM websites cater to Muslims mainly and hold the truth of the Quran & Hadith.
However Non-believer/Islam-slammer websites such as theprophetofdoom.com are 'obviously' made just for a non-muslim audience (who don't have copies of the Quran or hadith themselves and therefore cannot check the facts)
These websites get away with fabricating information or lying because they tell people like you what you want to hear.
And you are lying again since you haven't got copies of the Taqiyya or Kitman , why can't you name the 'real' source 'websites' like an 'honest' person???
International Issues of Loyalty to Britain will bring conflict
As is currently happening on the other side of the coin
Consider these words [[top Zionist institutions in unprecedented crisis!]] posted in Dec 09
""Israel purports to speak on behalf of us as Jews. Many in our community are telling us that we therefore have a special responsibility – more so than Britons of other faiths or those of no faith – to condemn Israel’s violations of human rights and common decency when dealing with the Palestinians. Many others are saying that we should say explicitly and unequivocally – both as individuals and through our community institutions – that our loyalty is to Britain first, second, third and fourth ad infinitum, that we have no special loyalty or allegiance to Israel and that, for us, Israel is just another country, like France, Italy or Spain...."
top Zionist institutions in unprecedented crisis!
I was thinking more of incidents like 7/7
How does this say that Muslims can't integrate in British society?
Britons in general, do not advocate the crimes against humanity committed by Israel against Palestine(both Christian and Muslim Palestinians) [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4ppIR1rtE]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW4ppIR1rtE]] [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z97Ht_8k8P8]]
Not all Jews are Pro-Israel or Zionist-[[http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/]]
"A delegation of Religious Orthodox Jews have joined British MP George Galloway in another Viva Palestina convoy to deliver aid to the citizens of Gaza."-[[http://www.nkusa.org/]]
1,680 Google videos of Rabbis against the creation of Israel (Anit-Zionist Rabbis)- [[http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=jews+against+zionism&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=YSE8S6uZJNKHkAWh4_mXBg&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCIQqwQwAw#]]
1,330 Youtube video results for 'Jews against Zionism'-[[http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=jews+against+zionism]]
Ever heard of Noam Chomsky?
protest against war crimes in Gaza Kentucky, U.S.A [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8USJ3zOxW4]]
The United Nations has a word in [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhfXt26kAj0]]
Muslims cannot adopt to British way of life
Yet Per Capita, there are far more households in muslim countries without running water than western countries. Why is this?
Thanks for the basic notation of mathematics, welcome to the world of Shakespeare, Computers & Freedom of thought..
We are a chrisitan nation and have been for 100s of years and as the Koran states Christians are infidels. As a chrisitan I see no problem, I welcome Muslims into britian but only if they accept our laws and beliefs. British sociaty does not run parrallel with Muslim beliefs therefore unless our laws are change to suit them then intergrating into britian isn't easy.
Yet Muslim inventors and philosophers are greatly responsible for what you refer to as being the 'British' way of life.-[[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html]]
And Christians say atheists are infidels/non-believer does not mean Christians and atheists cannot be citizens of the same state?
The fact that all Muslim countries have had and still do have a fraction of Christians in their population refutes the point on the right; sufficiently.
Islam Cannot Co-Exist With Britain or Other Religions
Islam seeks to dominate the world and ultimately create its own one world government and one world religion. They can only go along to get along when they are a minority in their environment; however once they become the majority there is a huge shift that takes place that results in a demeanor of dominance. This is why Islam cannot coexist with Britain or other religions because it’s only a façade.
This global effort is not in the context of power mongering just to be power mongering but out of desperation. They are desperately dominating the world so that all humans throughout the world are on the same page, so to speak, and anyone who refuses to convert to Islam must be first counseled or threatened and if this fails then execution is the only viable alternative. Islam cannot allow anyone to not be on the same page because doing so will present the possibility of their global effort coming to ruin.
Islam’s dominance is to prevent the last event of their seven-year prophetic period from being fulfilled. This concerns the anti-Christ that is destined to appear toward the end of the seven-year period and wage war with the Mahdi and Isa and destroy the both of them. In order to prevent the event from occurring, Islam must be able to bring the entire human race up against the anti-Christ, at that time, and destroy him before he can destroy the Mahdi and Isa.
So, the real question can be; how long should Britain pretend that Islam can co-exist before they become a majority?
I hate to point it out to you but Britain is not a religion nor a religious state for that matter.
British law is the law.
A lot of these debates are not answering the question poised. The question is not which religion is better but whether a muslim can integrate into British society. My views are based on living for the past 40 years in a northern town with a strong muslim population.
I say no for the following points.
1) Queen and country comes first even before God.
2) British secular law is the only law in the hearts and minds of a British person. Therefore the Sharia council has no meaning to an integrated muslim. By way of an example, if a person, whether they call themselves muslim or otherwise, whether male of female, wants a divorce or settle some financial dispute, they go to a solicitor trained in the British legal system.
3) Any British citizen can marry or divorce whomever they choose regardless of the other persons race, or religion without fear of repercussions from their family members.
4) There is no such thing as "family-honour" in British society except in the most superficial sense of being seen as polite and law abiding.
5) Tribal loyalty or association is meaningless in Britain.
6) A mainstay and a strength of British culture is the ability to make fun of anything and everyone including ourselves. This even covers religious figures as illustrated in the Monty Python film "The Life of Brian."
7) Being an integrated muslim means nothing more than you choose to pray in a mosque rather than a synagogue or church. Outside of the mosque there is nothing separating you from anyone else as regards the social norms you live by.
In answer to the Yes points:
2. "who are we to complain" The response doesn't answer WHY muslims feel they need another recourse. British law should be sufficient for a muslim to resolve any dispute. Doing otherwise fuels the speculation muslims are different and you cannot integrate if you are different.
4. Here the person answering is deliberately avoiding the topic. British Society does not murder their daughters because they choose to marry someone other than who their parents choose because of honour. Though many muslims may also think this is a disgusting practice the fact remains the practice exists in muslim communities.
5. Again another deliberate attempt to avoid the real topic. Muslims are tribal. In Britain the nation comes first, even amongst football supporters. Britain comes before God is something everyone who is integrated would understand - even the blue-rinsed grannies who go to church on Sundays.
6. Muslims have a sense of humour, But if I was to tell you a joke or publish a cartoon about mohammed there'd be up roar (the Danish cartoons are one example). British culture takes the mickey out of everyone and everything - no one is safe, even Jesus Christ (hence to reference to Monty Python).
Several of these points are debatable even for non-muslims.
1, there are bound to be quite a few people who put God before Queen in particular but also potentially country.
2, if it gets everything sorted to everyone's satisfaction without having to resort to the expense of the law who are we to complain, it is only if there is a clash there is potentially a problem.
4, Does this matter - even if there is not does having such views prevent you from integrating? Dont many conservatives want us to move back to having more family values?
5, unless it is to a football team!
6, Implying that muslims dont get jokes or don't have a sense of humour?
No they are racist.
Nowhere have we seen these people try to integrate with the country that they have invaded, and to which clothes and feeds them. They show nothing but hate towards us and for too long. They are pure racist hiding behind the facade of religion. Religion has nothing to do with being friendly or integrating. We are humans who should get along with each other instead of thinking one is the higher caste. Pure hypocrisy and unnecessary. Whats more they ruin our national day of mourning by ranting filth and hate and burning poppies, and do not receive a fine for it. Now that is racist from the idiots and our government. Why do people sprout bibles of various cultures ???, just get on with each other.
First it is difficult to classify it as an invasion - they have not conquered and Britain could easily throw them out if wished. Secondly there are many British Muslims who do try to integrate, wear British clothing (with the exception of a hijab (but a veil of a different type is hardly unknown among Britons) most attempt to learn the language, send their kids to British schools, run businesses etc.
There may be some that 'hate' Britain but most don't, and those who do will likely leave at some point as in a mobile world everyone might as well stay somewhere they like.
If Religion has nothing to do with being friendly or integrating then surely this is saying that British Muslims can integrate?
They think they are better.
They will not integrate with us they do not want to, they want to rule us. And WHAT has ANY religion got to do with being friends ?.
What do you think?